Photo ID only for New Chase 1.5% Bank Account (and other things)

Bigwheels1111

The issue I have is it looks like we are heading down the totalitarian route for the last 2 years.
I have been stopped while out 11 times by the police during covid.

Demanding photo ID, or name address and date of birth.
Because I might be breaking covid rules / act.
As I’m a 24 hour a day carer I was so careful not the go near another person, I would cross the road to avoid others.
I only went out for exercise or shopping, both legal and legitimate purposes.

I was searched twice, which put me at risk from a police officer who did not wear a mask or gloves first time, waiting on complaint about that.
I was arrested once because they would not listen or did not care and just wanted to give me a ticket.
When I refused to give id it was off to the station for me.
While being booked in the desk sergeant ask did I understand why I was there.
I said no as exercise is allowed and please contact social services as they will need to take over caring as I cannot.
He then asked what happened and after I explained.
After a brief discussion with the two idiots, Asking why a man in a tea shirt shorts and trainers running in the park on his own was potentially breaking covid rules, I was told I’m free to go. 

He made them take me back to the park.
Blue ego is a terrible thing.
The rest of the stops were who are you what are you doing etc.
I just smile and don’t speak.

Out of principal now I carry no id just phone for payment and recording the idiots.
Plus £20 cash.

p00hsticks

Aristotle67 said:

Daliah said:
 

So how do you solve the issue without people having to provide Government-issued ID, which you say doesn't sit well with you?

Have Government issued ID which is available to everyone and make it compulsory. That would sit well with me. That is the answer to not everyone having a current photo ID document.

My point is merely that because not everyone currently has a photo ID document, because it is not obligatory to hold one, it is inevitable that some people are disadvantaged and perhaps excluded from certain things. What doesn't sit well with me is people being required by organisations to provide what they are not required to have. 

Some people will refuse top provide what is generally regarded as a photo ID document even though they do hold one (e.g. a passport or photo driving licence). That I don't agree with. For me as I have both I am happy to provide either or both as required. But....not everyone can, as things stand.

So in other words - rather than reinvent the wheel by creating another form of document - let's say we simply make it compulsory for everyone to hold a passport ?

I'm one of those who until recently possessed neither a passport or driving licence.

Over the last few years, as money laundering regulations and fraud checks have been tightened up, I've found it more and more difficult to pass some of these checks, and finally, whilst in the process of carrying out the executorship of an estate, it became such an issue that I bit the bullet and applied for and got  a passport, simply to have as a form of ID, so I've been through the 'first adult passport application' process recently.

If you do make such a document compulsory, I think that the main hurdle will be that either you keep up the initial - quite stringent - application process (which involves an interview with the Passport Office using Skype and finding someone of suitable standing who is prepared to vouch for your identitiy), or you relax the criteria and hand out passports like smarties to anyone that asks (which rather defeats the object) or you accept that there will be people living perfectly legitimately in this country who will be unable to find someone who meets the current criteria for confirming their identity.

https://www.gov.uk/confirm-identity-online-for-passport-application

masonic

p00hsticks said:

If you do make such a document compulsory, I think that the main hurdle will be that either you keep up the initial - quite stringent - application process (which involves an interview with the Passport Office using Skype and finding someone of suitable standing who is prepared to vouch for your identitiy), or you relax the criteria and hand out passports like smarties to anyone that asks (which rather defeats the object) or you accept that there will be people living perfectly legitimately in this country who will be unable to find someone who meets the current criteria for confirming their identity.

https://www.gov.uk/confirm-identity-online-for-passport-application

It would not make sense to relax this process, which is only for a first passport and not renewals. According to the Government, 98% of adults in the UK hold a photographic ID document already, so that extra 2% would create quite an increase to the ~1% of young people who naturally reach an age where they need their first passport each year. However, not an insurmountable challenge. If someone has arrived in the UK less than 2 years ago, then it could be challenging to find someone to confirm your ID, but many such people will have a document from a country where they were previously resident, and for others it would be a matter of time before they built up a 2 year relationship as they integrated into society.

Voter ID will make such a document compulsory for all voters. The council issued documents will no doubt be easier to obtain, but still better than no photographic ID at all, so it will be interesting to see if such a document, which is good enough to vote with, will be good enough to open financial accounts with.

Aristotle67

Daliah said:

Not sure I can follow you. 

You say it doesn't sit well with you that people need Government-issued Id at banks etc, yet you'd be happy to force everyone to have Government-issued ID?

What's the issue about having, and showing, Government-issued ID on a voluntary basis, anyway? Millions of us do it regularly. 

How are people being disadvantaged if they exercise their right not to have a Government-issued ID? They might exclude themselves from services which are only available with such ID but it's their own decision to do so and they really can't blame anyone else.

No, I don't think you do follow because that is not what I am saying. Let me try and clarify.

A passport or a driving licence is NOT a Government issued ID card. A Government issued ID card is something that would be available to everyone. Neither of those documents meet that criterion. A passport is a travel document which the holder has to buy. A driving licence is a document issued on successful completion of a driving test (let us not get into provisional licences). Many people hold neither. 

What does not sit well with me is that banks, and other organisations, use these as if they were Government issued ID cards in that they require either to be provided if a customer is not to be excluded from certain services. That disadvantages those that have neither. I understand why banks adopt this approach, but it still does not sit well with me because it excludes a number of persons by requiring them to have what is not compulsory for the individual to hold.

The solution is to have a Government issued ID card which is available for everyone at minimal, if any, cost. That way anyone who does not have one is choosing not to have one, which is very different from the situation with passports and driving licences. With a Government issued ID card being available, anyone who is excluded from services by not providing their card is effectively making that choice to be excluded themselves; and so I agree entirely with the final point you have made.

And just to clarify further, I always carry my driving licence and am happy to show it when required. However, not everyone has this and, obviously, cannot show what they do not have. 

Aristotle67

p00hsticks said:

So in other words - rather than reinvent the wheel by creating another form of document - let's say we simply make it compulsory for everyone to hold a passport ?

The thing is, p00hsticks, I don't think this particular wheel has been invented and so introducing an ID card is inventing, not reinventing, this wheel!!

Making it compulsory to have an ID card would surely be more simple than making everyone have a passport. Of course, if this requires similar stringent checks and processes to be involved, then fine. If it is to be compulsory, and I have no issue with this, it  should be at minimal, if any, cost to the individual, unlike the current fee for a passport. And let us not lose sight of what a passport is. It is a travel document. Some people do not have one as they have no intention of travelling abroad. 

Masonic has referred to Voter ID which would be a step forward and solve the issue of a non-compulsory ID document as everyone registered to vote can apply for this. I would hope if it was good enough for elections then it should be good enough for banks. One might argue that electoral fraud is more serious than banking fraud.

Daliah

Aristotle67 said:

Daliah said:

Not sure I can follow you. 

You say it doesn't sit well with you that people need Government-issued Id at banks etc, yet you'd be happy to force everyone to have Government-issued ID?

What's the issue about having, and showing, Government-issued ID on a voluntary basis, anyway? Millions of us do it regularly. 

How are people being disadvantaged if they exercise their right not to have a Government-issued ID? They might exclude themselves from services which are only available with such ID but it's their own decision to do so and they really can't blame anyone else.

A passport or a driving licence is NOT a Government issued ID card. 

A passport and a photo driving licence are Government-issued photo ID.

Either of which are perfectly acceptable to prove your ID to banks, police, doctors, airlines, gambling firms, parcel pick-up points etc

Aristotle67

Daliah said:

Aristotle67 said:

Daliah said:

Not sure I can follow you. 

You say it doesn't sit well with you that people need Government-issued Id at banks etc, yet you'd be happy to force everyone to have Government-issued ID?

What's the issue about having, and showing, Government-issued ID on a voluntary basis, anyway? Millions of us do it regularly. 

How are people being disadvantaged if they exercise their right not to have a Government-issued ID? They might exclude themselves from services which are only available with such ID but it's their own decision to do so and they really can't blame anyone else.

A passport or a driving licence is NOT a Government issued ID card. 

A passport and a photo driving licence are Government-issued photo ID.

Either of which are perfectly acceptable to prove your ID to banks, police, doctors, airlines, gambling firms, parcel pick-up points etc

When those documents come with the words "Identity card" on them, I will accept that point. I refer to previous comments as to why, at present, I do not regard those as such. 

masonic

Aristotle67 said:

Daliah said:

Aristotle67 said:

Daliah said:

Not sure I can follow you. 

You say it doesn't sit well with you that people need Government-issued Id at banks etc, yet you'd be happy to force everyone to have Government-issued ID?

What's the issue about having, and showing, Government-issued ID on a voluntary basis, anyway? Millions of us do it regularly. 

How are people being disadvantaged if they exercise their right not to have a Government-issued ID? They might exclude themselves from services which are only available with such ID but it's their own decision to do so and they really can't blame anyone else.

A passport or a driving licence is NOT a Government issued ID card. 

A passport and a photo driving licence are Government-issued photo ID.

Either of which are perfectly acceptable to prove your ID to banks, police, doctors, airlines, gambling firms, parcel pick-up points etc

When those documents come with the words "Identity card" on them, I will accept that point. I refer to previous comments as to why, at present, I do not regard those as such. 

A passport or driving licence photocard are issued by the government and used for proving one's identity. It is perfectly correct to refer to them as government issued photo ID. The jug-like electronic device I've just used to boil some water doesn't have the word "kettle" printed anywhere on it, but it would be rather ridiculous to deny that's what it is.

Daliah

Aristotle67 said:

Daliah said:

Aristotle67 said:

Daliah said:

Not sure I can follow you. 

You say it doesn't sit well with you that people need Government-issued Id at banks etc, yet you'd be happy to force everyone to have Government-issued ID?

What's the issue about having, and showing, Government-issued ID on a voluntary basis, anyway? Millions of us do it regularly. 

How are people being disadvantaged if they exercise their right not to have a Government-issued ID? They might exclude themselves from services which are only available with such ID but it's their own decision to do so and they really can't blame anyone else.

A passport or a driving licence is NOT a Government issued ID card. 

A passport and a photo driving licence are Government-issued photo ID.

Either of which are perfectly acceptable to prove your ID to banks, police, doctors, airlines, gambling firms, parcel pick-up points etc

When those documents come with the words "Identity card" on them, I will accept that point. I refer to previous comments as to why, at present, I do not regard those as such. 

Seems you are in a minority of 1 and fighting a losing battle on a point of terminology. PP and DL are quite obviously Government-issued photo ID because the only place you can get them from is a Government agency. Whenever I was asked for ID, either my passport or DL were accepted as such. Even Government itself (e.g. for Government Gateway login) accept either of them. Banks (about whom this thread got started) go to great length publishing on their websites that they accept these documents as proof of ID. 

gov.uk guidance for ID verification also explicitly states "you might decide to accept a passport as evidence of someone’s identity if you know:

• the users of your service are likely to have a passport
• staff in your organisation have equipment they need to check the document effectively"

p00hsticks

Aristotle67 said:

p00hsticks said:

So in other words - rather than reinvent the wheel by creating another form of document - let's say we simply make it compulsory for everyone to hold a passport ?

The thing is, p00hsticks, I don't think this particular wheel has been invented and so introducing an ID card is inventing, not reinventing, this wheel!!

Making it compulsory to have an ID card would surely be more simple than making everyone have a passport. Of course, if this requires similar stringent checks and processes to be involved, then fine. If it is to be compulsory, and I have no issue with this, it  should be at minimal, if any, cost to the individual, unlike the current fee for a passport.

I can't see that inventing an entirely new form of ID card, together with the requisite new organisation to initially validate 100% of the populations identities and then issue these new cards, is going to be simpler than simply requiringg the - relatively small - percentage of the population who don't currently possess a passport to get one. You could even waive the fee for first time adult passports.