Photo ID only for New Chase 1.5% Bank Account (and other things)

Aristotle67

Daliah said:

Seems you are in a minority of 1 and fighting a losing battle on a point of terminology. PP and DL are quite obviously Government-issued photo ID because the only place you can get them from is a Government agency. Whenever I was asked for ID, either my passport or DL were accepted as such. Even Government itself (e.g. for Government Gateway login) accept either of them. Banks (about whom this thread got started) go to great length publishing on their websites that they accept these documents as proof of ID. 

gov.uk guidance for ID verification also explicitly states "you might decide to accept a passport as evidence of someone’s identity if you know:

• the users of your service are likely to have a passport
• staff in your organisation have equipment they need to check the document effectively"

I used to be an examiner in Law from GCSE up to degree level. If we go to the lowest of those levels, GCSE, Civil Liberties was part of the syllabus. A typical question on a GCSE national exam paper worth one point might ask "Do we have national identity cards in the UK?" I can assure you that the answer to which I and every examiner is going to give the mark to is not "yes"!! 

As you have pointed out, organisations are free to treat the documents we have been describing as such if they choose to; but that doesn't mean that they actually are such. 

But....you are entitled to your view, Daliah. So we can disagree if you wish. 

Daliah

Honestly, it's not about philosophical considerations - it's merely about a practical way to prove your ID to a bank. For this, as thousands of people find every day, a passport or DL, or both, are perfectly good and we don't need to invent anything else, particularly as 98% of the population do have one or the other or both.

But yes, let's agree to disagree and not continue this painful discussion.

Aristotle67

masonic said:

A passport or driving licence photocard are issued by the government and used for proving one's identity. It is perfectly correct to refer to them as government issued photo ID. The jug-like electronic device I've just used to boil some water doesn't have the word "kettle" printed anywhere on it, but it would be rather ridiculous to deny that's what it is.

Interesting analogy with kettle. I used to illustrate a similar point with a hypothetical situation that a television set, which was sold with a receipt stating that it is a radio, which both the seller and buyer referred to as a radio, which therefore purported to be a radio and which the buyer only used to pick up radio (not television programmes) on, did not mean it was a radio. When the tv licence people knock at the seller's door demanding to see his tv licence, his argument that he does not have one because this is a radio is not going to wash!

Similarly, I have lost count the number of times in the past I have had to point out to insurance companies that their policy which purports to be an annual policy (because it says in the policy terms that it is an annual policy) is in fact a monthly policy by its construction. And it is not because the premium was paid in monthly instalments.

Just because something purports to be something does not mean that this is what it actually is in law. Your kettle situation is an obvious one, of course. But not everything is so clear cut. Still, we are all entitled to our views! 





 

phillw

I used to be an examiner in Law from GCSE up to degree level. If we go to the lowest of those levels, GCSE, Civil Liberties was part of the syllabus. A typical question on a GCSE national exam paper worth one point might ask "Do we have national identity cards in the UK?" I can assure you that the answer to which I and every examiner is going to give the mark to is not "yes"!! 

A passport is a form of id issued by the government.

A national identity card would be another type of id that the government could issue.

An id card would be cheaper than a paper passport, but the proposals were relatively expensive

masonic

Aristotle67 said:

masonic said:

A passport or driving licence photocard are issued by the government and used for proving one's identity. It is perfectly correct to refer to them as government issued photo ID. The jug-like electronic device I've just used to boil some water doesn't have the word "kettle" printed anywhere on it, but it would be rather ridiculous to deny that's what it is.

Interesting analogy with kettle. I used to illustrate a similar point with a hypothetical situation that a television set, which was sold with a receipt stating that it is a radio, which both the seller and buyer referred to as a radio, which therefore purported to be a radio and which the buyer only used to pick up radio (not television programmes) on, did not mean it was a radio. When the tv licence people knock at the seller's door demanding to see his tv licence, his argument that he does not have one because this is a radio is not going to wash!

Well it certainly ought to because there is no requirement to hold a TV licence unless a device is being used to:

"- watch or record programmes as they’re being shown on TV, on any channel
 - watch or stream programmes live on an online TV service (such as ITV Hub, All 4, YouTube, Amazon Prime Video, Now TV, Sky Go, etc.)
 - download or watch any BBC programmes on BBC iPlayer."

https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one

Even if the device is not considered a TV (for example if it is a computer or mobile phone), if it is used to do any of the above, the buyer would need a TV licence, whereas if it was just used to receive radio, whatever its classification, he would not.

Aristotle67

I want to apologise to everyone because I got carried away over the last 24 hours labouring a point. I have my view on the matter but I should not have continued to argue it. That is not what the thread was focusing on and I shouldn't have dragged it off topic. 

Sorry.

MartusJK

Aristotle67 said:

I want to apologise to everyone because I got carried away over the last 24 hours labouring a point. I have my view on the matter but I should not have continued to argue it. That is not what the thread was focusing on and I shouldn't have dragged it off topic. 

Sorry.

As the person who started all this I basically agree with you Aristotle67 and thank you for your contributions. My solution to all this is relatively simple: first forget whether Driving licences or passports are official ID or not - yes they can serve as such but no they are not primarily for that function and ownership does vary for a number of valid reasons. Forget also new council voting ID, thats very contentious in itself and all other pseudo government IDs. So, as I see it (maybe others have better solutons?) all we need to solve this is a central government ID service, a one stop shop for any organisation, banks, solictors, estate agents whoever to make a quick and simple (online) check to get a centrally verified ID. should be relatively to simple to set up, government has all the various ID databases of who we are in many different ways to cross verify anyone, maybe this service could evenallow people to upload their mughsot (maybe have a small admin fee but also why not a small charge to all the organisations using it to fund it?). Why doesnt it/wont it happen? My view, and I am sorry but its getting a bit into political territory, is it that the current ID "industry" is a big lucrative money making operation which would be then effectively be put out of business and of course this particular government would never like that (I wouldnt be surprised if these companies also contribute to tory parrty funds...ok i had better stop there!)

masonic

MartusJK said:

My view, and I am sorry but its getting a bit into political territory, is it that the current ID "industry" is a big lucrative money making operation which would be then effectively be put out of business and of course this particular government would never like that (I wouldnt be surprised if these companies also contribute to tory parrty funds...ok i had better stop there!)

You think that's political? How about this: it was a Conservative party manifesto pledge before the 2010 election to abolish national ID cards, see https://www.theguardian.com/government-computing-network/2010/apr/13/conservative-manifesto-online-data-id-cards-13apr10 . They existed and were in the process of being rolled out prior to them winning the GE.

Daliah

I think there is cross-party, and even cross-country, and cross-industry consensus that money launderers and fraudsters need to be stopped. One of the most critical actions to achieve this objective is ID verification of every new customer.

masonic

Daliah said:

I think there is cross-party, and even cross-country, and cross-industry consensus that money launderers and fraudsters need to be stopped. One of the most critical actions to achieve this objective is ID verification of every new customer.

Yes, and I think there is cross-party/cross-country/cross-industry support to do so using government issued ID documents that 98% of the population already hold, which has been implemented for the better part of a decade at least, rather than embark on an expensive project to reinvent the wheel, at a time when people feel public money should be targeted to more pressing matters.