Road Tax on EV's

MouldyOldDough

Bonniepurple said:

Herzlos said:

Thrugelmir said:

 Building EV's isn't green in itself. 

Nothing is particularly green, but EV's result in cleaner air where the car is, and most of the nasties of manufacture can be done somewhere else.

The greenest approaches are trains / trams / trolley busses with overhead power (so no batteries) or bicycles, but given that'll never happen, cities air quality will be hugely improved by replacing combustion cars with electric.

And that is the key issue that I have with EVs.  It does feel like it’s an “out of sight, out of mind” type thing.  I’d love to know how much overall environmental damage the production and manufacture of EVs does.  They may well be less polluting in terms of nitrous oxides and carbon dioxide, but they are not as “green” as people would like to think.

I have nothing against EVs, I just object to the common perception that they are completely environmentally friendly!

I totally agree with you on the green issue

There's also the false idea that running an EV is totally free of pollution - but this is untrue -buildinga new EV consumes more resources than running a 5 year old (already built) IC engined car..  then theres Lithium batteries which use heaps of resources to manufacture and what happens to them after around 10 years ?

The energy consumed by charging could be used for other purposes, such as heating homes - which STILL needs to be done - so will, in itself consume more natural resources - since we are far from running the country on renewables - and that is without the HUGE added burden of millions of EVs

MouldyOldDough

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

legionare64 said:

They may road tax EVs sometime in the future but all that are already on the road will be free same as all the free and cheap tax petrol and diesels from pre April 2017. If they were to want more revenue they would increase tax on these, but they have to stay in bands from when they were new just like the crazy priced big petrols frpm early 2000's

They are seriously considering "pay per mile "- with disabled being given a certain number of free miles - rather than free RT

But why should disabled - be limited to X,0000 miles per year free ?

That's like saying that disabled drivers only drive occasionally.....

I think the idea is that disabled people need the cars due to mobility issues (otherwise they wouldn't have the motability car), whereas everyone else is encouraged to use alternative transport.

Of course, motability cars are VED exempt, anyway. But they do still pay fuel. I'd be fine with them being completely tax free as long as there was some sort of mechanism to avoid !!!!!! taking by people who are using a mobility car outwith the benefit of the disabled keeper.

But, for non-disabled people - theres NO public transport available - buses are non existant as are trains (Beeching saw to that, 60 years ago)

Motability cars are not the only vehicles used by disabled drivers - probably less than 10% of; less mobile drivers have a motability car !

There are currently 633,000 motability cars but 1.35 million exempt from road tax with over 14 million disabled people in UK - Admittely less than half will be drivers and unknown numbers will have mobility issues - but irs still large numbers

Petriix

MouldyOldDough said:

Bonniepurple said:

Herzlos said:

Thrugelmir said:

 Building EV's isn't green in itself. 

Nothing is particularly green, but EV's result in cleaner air where the car is, and most of the nasties of manufacture can be done somewhere else.

The greenest approaches are trains / trams / trolley busses with overhead power (so no batteries) or bicycles, but given that'll never happen, cities air quality will be hugely improved by replacing combustion cars with electric.

And that is the key issue that I have with EVs.  It does feel like it’s an “out of sight, out of mind” type thing.  I’d love to know how much overall environmental damage the production and manufacture of EVs does.  They may well be less polluting in terms of nitrous oxides and carbon dioxide, but they are not as “green” as people would like to think.

I have nothing against EVs, I just object to the common perception that they are completely environmentally friendly!

I totally agree with you on the green issue

There's also the false idea that running an EV is totally free of pollution - but this is untrue -buildinga new EV consumes more resources than running a 5 year old (already built) IC engined car..  then theres Lithium batteries which use heaps of resources to manufacture and what happens to them after around 10 years ?

The energy consumed by charging could be used for other purposes, such as heating homes - which STILL needs to be done - so will, in itself consume more natural resources - since we are far from running the country on renewables - and that is without the HUGE added burden of millions of EVs

You're making stuff up (or regurgitating nonsense you've heard elsewhere). When you compare the environmental impacts of producing and fueling an EV to an equivalent ICEV - including the well-to-pump impacts of finding, extracting, shipping and refining the oil - the EV is vastly 'greener' than running an old car. The EV's entire carbon footprint from its manufacture will be offset within 20k miles.

Then consider that the metals in the battery are infinitely recyclable whereas the fossil fuels are literally burned away. After 10 years the battery will still be in use, at around 75% of its original capacity. After 20 years when the rest of the car has fallen apart and technology has moved on, the battery will still be useful for home energy storage. When it finally reaches the end of its useful life, it's over 90% recyclable.

Do yourself a favour and look at EV battery prices on Ebay. They sell for thousands because they're valuable and in high demand.

motorguy

Norman_Castle said:

MouldyOldDough said:

How much will this be and will they simply class all EVs in one group or by cost price ?

The government failed to think this through fully

VED was set at zero to encourage people to buy them which has worked. As VED is based on emissions and electric vehicles have none charging per mile seems fair although charging based on size or weight could be an option. Smaller cars use less road space when parked and reduce congestion queue sizes, lighter vehicles cause less damage to roads.

I think they'll bring cost in to it.  A £120K electric car could weigh less and be smaller than a £30K one.  

Grey_Critic

As someone has said EVs have Zero road tax/VED whatever you might like to call it which is (intentionally) an incentive to switch- that will/must change at some point.

Cars/Buses/Trucks produce money for the government in the form of taxation - those taxes (together with others) pay to run the country. Education and health for example.

The government cannot afford not to apply some form of taxation, indeed anyone with an EV is currently being subsidised by those who drive conventional vehicles.

Car_54

Grey_Critic said:

As someone has said EVs have Zero road tax/VED whatever you might like to call it which is (intentionally) an incentive to switch- that will/must change at some point.

Cars/Buses/Trucks produce money for the government in the form of taxation - those taxes (together with others) pay to run the country. Education and health for example.

The government cannot afford not to apply some form of taxation, indeed anyone with an EV is currently being subsidised by those who drive conventional vehicles.

And anyone who pays VED is subsidising everyone who doesn’t….

MouldyOldDough

Petriix said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Bonniepurple said:

Herzlos said:

Thrugelmir said:

 Building EV's isn't green in itself. 

Nothing is particularly green, but EV's result in cleaner air where the car is, and most of the nasties of manufacture can be done somewhere else.

The greenest approaches are trains / trams / trolley busses with overhead power (so no batteries) or bicycles, but given that'll never happen, cities air quality will be hugely improved by replacing combustion cars with electric.

And that is the key issue that I have with EVs.  It does feel like it’s an “out of sight, out of mind” type thing.  I’d love to know how much overall environmental damage the production and manufacture of EVs does.  They may well be less polluting in terms of nitrous oxides and carbon dioxide, but they are not as “green” as people would like to think.

I have nothing against EVs, I just object to the common perception that they are completely environmentally friendly!

I totally agree with you on the green issue

There's also the false idea that running an EV is totally free of pollution - but this is untrue -buildinga new EV consumes more resources than running a 5 year old (already built) IC engined car..  then theres Lithium batteries which use heaps of resources to manufacture and what happens to them after around 10 years ?

The energy consumed by charging could be used for other purposes, such as heating homes - which STILL needs to be done - so will, in itself consume more natural resources - since we are far from running the country on renewables - and that is without the HUGE added burden of millions of EVs

You're making stuff up (or regurgitating nonsense you've heard elsewhere). When you compare the environmental impacts of producing and fueling an EV to an equivalent ICEV - including the well-to-pump impacts of finding, extracting, shipping and refining the oil - the EV is vastly 'greener' than running an old car. The EV's entire carbon footprint from its manufacture will be offset within 20k miles.

Then consider that the metals in the battery are infinitely recyclable whereas the fossil fuels are literally burned away. After 10 years the battery will still be in use, at around 75% of its original capacity. After 20 years when the rest of the car has fallen apart and technology has moved on, the battery will still be useful for home energy storage. When it finally reaches the end of its useful life, it's over 90% recyclable.

Do yourself a favour and look at EV battery prices on Ebay. They sell for thousands because they're valuable and in high demand.

So where does the power come from to charge your battery ?

I bet it not charged soley from your solar panels ?

As for Ebay battery prices - that could be due to shortages or the fact that a new battery is hurrendously priced ?

Car_54

Petriix said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Bonniepurple said:

Herzlos said:

Thrugelmir said:

 Building EV's isn't green in itself. 

Nothing is particularly green, but EV's result in cleaner air where the car is, and most of the nasties of manufacture can be done somewhere else.

The greenest approaches are trains / trams / trolley busses with overhead power (so no batteries) or bicycles, but given that'll never happen, cities air quality will be hugely improved by replacing combustion cars with electric.

And that is the key issue that I have with EVs.  It does feel like it’s an “out of sight, out of mind” type thing.  I’d love to know how much overall environmental damage the production and manufacture of EVs does.  They may well be less polluting in terms of nitrous oxides and carbon dioxide, but they are not as “green” as people would like to think.

I have nothing against EVs, I just object to the common perception that they are completely environmentally friendly!

I totally agree with you on the green issue

There's also the false idea that running an EV is totally free of pollution - but this is untrue -buildinga new EV consumes more resources than running a 5 year old (already built) IC engined car..  then theres Lithium batteries which use heaps of resources to manufacture and what happens to them after around 10 years ?

The energy consumed by charging could be used for other purposes, such as heating homes - which STILL needs to be done - so will, in itself consume more natural resources - since we are far from running the country on renewables - and that is without the HUGE added burden of millions of EVs

You're making stuff up (or regurgitating nonsense you've heard elsewhere). When you compare the environmental impacts of producing and fueling an EV to an equivalent ICEV - including the well-to-pump impacts of finding, extracting, shipping and refining the oil - the EV is vastly 'greener' than running an old car. The EV's entire carbon footprint from its manufacture will be offset within 20k miles.

That 20k figure probably assumes that all the electricity is "green". In the real world, Volvo put the figure at 68,000 miles. A big difference.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-10161697/Volvo-says-electric-car-making-emissions-70-HIGHER-petrol.html

Herzlos

MouldyOldDough said:

So where does the power come from to charge your battery ?

It doesn't really matter, the EV is still going to be greener after a point. Even if the electricity for the EV comes from burning gasolene, the actual burning part will be about 90% efficient rather than 60% efficient. Carbon capture will be able to deal with the worst of the fumes, and the power station could be next to the refinery. Power transmission over lines is more efficient than tankers, emissions are kept away from street level and so on.

Of course, if the EV is powered by green energy then it's even better.

Herzlos

Car_54 said:

That 20k figure probably assumes that all the electricity is "green". In the real world, Volvo put the figure at 68,000 miles. A big difference.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-10161697/Volvo-says-electric-car-making-emissions-70-HIGHER-petrol.html

Given a car should be good for about 150,000 miles, even a break even point of 68,000 miles is under half of it's life. Average mileage of an end of life car is about 110,000 miles it should be fine.

Admittedly, a car that doesn't survive 68,000 miles will not compensate for it's build, but any early written off car is going to be a waste of resources.