Items stolen while in Hermes care

Alderbank

As you can probably guess I'm not too happy with this as I'm now a few hundred pounds out of pocket

The reason you are a few hundred pounds out of pocket is because you voluntarily handed all the money back to the buyer.
Neither the buyer nor the driver now have any interest in supporting your claim

I know you said you carried out due diligence tests which proved that the buyer was above suspicion (no idea what these tests are but they sound very useful) but to me his behaviour was beyond strange.
He went through a slightly unusual ritual of stopping the delivery driver leaving until he witnessed the opening of the box which the buyer expected to contain a device of significant weight worth several hundred pounds. They both saw that the box was empty.
But then what? Nothing! Apparently he just told the driver to be on his way.
The response you should have expected would be astonishment - angrily refusing to accept the delivery and phoning Hermes (and you) to complain.
Had he done that I think you might have had enough evidence to force Hermes to pay up.

You should have told the buyer that because he had not refused to accept the package which he claimed to have opened in the presence of the delivery driver there were no grounds for a refund.

sheramber

Whose legs are in the picture? The Hermes driver?

Has the driver confirmed that he witnessed the box being opened and being empty?

Alderbank

I have led on many high level investigations. If this picture (without metadata) was presented as evidence it would tell me two things only:

1. It was daylight.
2. It is staged to mislead or deceive. 

The three factors it could have linked - the label on the package, the address, and the identity of the witness are all tantalisingly just out of sight.

Manxman_in_exile

Lap said:

...After taking some legal advice, I was advised that even if I took them to court they would most likely side with Hermes as they had delivered the item. So proofing that it was stolen while in Hermes care would be difficult. 

As you can probably guess I'm not too happy with this as I'm now a few hundred pounds out of pocket 

[Cross-posted with the previous post by Alderbank]

If I were you and I was a few hundred quid out of pocket, I'd definitely being suing* them.  You issue the claim yourself - you don't have to get a lawyer to do it for you.  I'm not sure what the fee is (others will know) but you can add that on to the value of the claim against them.  Apart from that, it just takes a bit of investment in time from you.

But I'm confused about whether Hermes have actually accepted that they delivered an empty box.  I think you are saying they have accepted that, but it's not entirely clear from what you've posted.  If they do accept that they delivered an empty box, then they are basically calling you a liar and accusing you of attempting to defraud them by you falsely saying that they lost the goods which you never sent.  If I were you in this situation, and I were confident that I was telling the truth, I'd sue them without any hesitation.

It's a pity you've left it so long, although that doesn't seem to have been all your own doing.  Is there any possibility at all that you could go back to the place where you dropped off the parcel and get the elderly lady there to agree to give evidence that it was too heavy for her to lift?  (You said that you had to carry the box into a store room or something because it was too heavy for her).  You could get a witness statement from her at a later date if she was willing to do so.  Even if she's forgotten by now and can't help you, I'd still want to sue them and would be happy to run the risk of losing the case and any issue fee in order to do so.

I don't think much of the legal advice you've been given.  Did you pay for that?  I don't see why the court would be more likely to side with Hermes because they've "delivered the item".  Isn't the whole point that they've not delivered the item - just an empty box?  If Hermes, their delivery driver and the recipient are all agreed that an empty box was delivered, then a court could only side with Hermes if it believed you were a blatant liar and an attempted fraudster by falsely claiming that you had sent the items in the first place.  I'm not so sure a court would draw such a conclusion as readily as your legal advisor thinks it would.  (Especially against a courier company with a reputation like Hermes has.)  But of course, I might be wrong...

You said at the outset that you took "extra cover" out on the parcel.  What exactly have Hermes said about this and what exactly is their explanation for not paying out?  Have they refunded whatever this "extra cover" cost?

*You'd need to be clear what you were suing them for.  Under the extra cover or for breach of contract or for the tort of conversion (ie unlawfully depriving you of your goods).  I'm sure other posters will have views on that.  And on whether you should sue or not.  I would but it doesn't mean you should.  At the end of the day you would have to weigh up all the pros and cons and make your own mind up whether it'd be worth doing so.

PS  -  One final thought.  In the title of this thread you accuse Hermes of stealing the items.  Is this how you've proceeded so far, rather than simply claiming that the items went missing while in their possession?  If you have, you may have annoyed them somewhat...

Manxman_in_exile

Alderbank said:

I have led on many high level investigations. If this picture (without metadata) was presented as evidence it would tell me two things only:

1. It was daylight.
2. It is staged to mislead or deceive. 

The three factors it could have linked - the label on the package, the address, and the identity of the witness are all tantalisingly just out of sight.

Staged by somebody other than the OP?  If so, all the more reason to issue a claim against Hermes.  (Assuming Hermes do accept that an empty package was delivered ... )

Ms_Chocaholic

Manxman_in_exile said:

Alderbank said:

I have led on many high level investigations. If this picture (without metadata) was presented as evidence it would tell me two things only:

1. It was daylight.
2. It is staged to mislead or deceive. 

The three factors it could have linked - the label on the package, the address, and the identity of the witness are all tantalisingly just out of sight.

Staged by somebody other than the OP?  If so, all the more reason to issue a claim against Hermes.  (Assuming Hermes do accept that an empty package was delivered ... )

Yes it appears to be staged by the buyer.

Alderbank

Ms_Chocaholic said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Alderbank said:

I have led on many high level investigations. If this picture (without metadata) was presented as evidence it would tell me two things only:

1. It was daylight.
2. It is staged to mislead or deceive. 

The three factors it could have linked - the label on the package, the address, and the identity of the witness are all tantalisingly just out of sight.

Staged by somebody other than the OP?  If so, all the more reason to issue a claim against Hermes.   )

(Assuming Hermes do accept that an empty package was delivered ...

Yes it appears to be staged by the buyer.

Hermes do not investigate and do not care about the contents of packages. They have delivered this package and have now moved on.
An independent observer would say that either the seller and buyer have conspired to defraud, or the buyer and delivery guy are trying something on.
The common factor here is the buyer.

smashinglynaive

Alderbank said:

Ms_Chocaholic said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Alderbank said:

I have led on many high level investigations. If this picture (without metadata) was presented as evidence it would tell me two things only:

1. It was daylight.
2. It is staged to mislead or deceive. 

The three factors it could have linked - the label on the package, the address, and the identity of the witness are all tantalisingly just out of sight.

Staged by somebody other than the OP?  If so, all the more reason to issue a claim against Hermes.   )

(Assuming Hermes do accept that an empty package was delivered ...

Yes it appears to be staged by the buyer.

Hermes do not investigate and do not care about the contents of packages. They have delivered this package and have now moved on.
An independent observer would say that either the seller and buyer have conspired to defraud, or the buyer and delivery guy are trying something on.
The common factor here is the buyer.

I suspect Hermes probably do care about the contents of the package, at least as far as the item being delivered but I also agree that I'm not sure the OP could convince a judge that the item was extracted from the package at some point pre-delivery.

Was the item weighed when it entered the chain?  If it was did it weigh the same throughout?  If it wasn't why did the recipient tell the delivery driver to wait until they cut it open when most drivers are halfway into the next country by the time you open the door nowadays?

Alderbank

For what they charge Hermes can't reasonably inspect the contents of each package. They make no claim on their site that they check the contents of a package.
Items are weighed when they enter the chain because the delivery fee is partly based on weight. There is no subsequent claim or warranty about weight. Bear in mind that a cardboard box left out in the rain will more than double in weight.

Manxman_in_exile

As I've already said, if (1) the OP is telling the truth about leaving the items at the Hermes drop off point, and if (2) Hermes have accepted that they delivered an empty package (and this is why I've asked the OP to confirm that they have accepted that), then I don't see that the OP has anything to lose by suing Hermes - except whaever it costs to issue a claim.  But then that also gives the OP a chance to recoup their "few hundred pounds out of pocket".

To me it seems a no-brainer to sue Hermes and I don't understand the OP's reluctance to do so.  But it's entirely up to them to decide if it's worth it or not.  There's never any guarantee of winning if you go to court but I don't see what's to lose except the fee to issue the claim.

All the OP needs to do is to persuade a judge that it is more likely than not that he did drop off the package with the speakers in it at the designated Hermes drop off point.  If Hermes have accepted they ended up delivering an empty box, it's irrelevant how the box came to be empty.  The OP needs to prove nothing about that - just that the box had the speakers in when he entrusted it to Hermes' agent.

smashinglynaive said:

...Was the item weighed when it entered the chain?  If it was did it weigh the same throughout? ...

According to the OP it was not weighed - unfortunately.  But apparently it was sufficiently heavy 10kg - 12kg that the elderly woman at the Hermes drop off point could not pick it up.  I have suggested that the OP tries to get this person to verify that the package obviously had something heavy in it when it was dropped off with them.

smashinglynaive said:

...why did the recipient tell the delivery driver to wait until they cut it open when most drivers are halfway into the next country by the time you open the door nowadays?

I think it's just about conceivable that if the recipient was expecting a package weighing 12kg, then they might have realised immediately that something was wrong (if it was just an empty box... ).  Where I live I can clearly see delivery men approaching my front door and I'm usually at the door before they leave anything.  (I have to do that because one idiot courier left a parcel in our food waste caddy ruining the contents - of the parcel, not the food waste... ).