Items stolen while in Hermes care

lisyloo

born_again said:

lisyloo said:

did you pay by credit card or debit card?
Im wondering whether you can chargeback the delivery and the insurance (although that doesn’t cover loss of the item).

OP says item was delivered (I know minus bits) so Hermies provided the service paid for. So No chargeback rights.

What?? You think delivering an empty box and losing the contents s is ok?

What about the insurance?
if they won’t even communicate then it’s not fit for purpose.

anyway some e.g. Amex, payback immediately and the retailer only has 20 days to appeal, so some give the buyer the benefit of the doubt. Hermes may well just not bother appealing a small chargeback (their admin doesn’t sound fantastic).

I’ve had 3 small chargebacks (2 Amex 1 MasterCard) go through without challenge.

obviously if you chargeback the insurance you forfeit the right to use it or complain about it.

lisyloo

bris said:

The problem is you can't trust the buyer, you are stuck between a rock and a hardplace because you actually don't know who stole the item.

Hermes delivered the package so the insurance isn't interested.

All comes downs to the detail of the evidence.
i had a package from Royal Mail wrapped in “really sorry we damaged this” official packaging.
that was pretty caste iron but I took a photo on the scales as well.

LaDerniereSemaine

lisyloo said:

LaDerniereSemaine said:

lisyloo said:

Lap said:

lisyloo said:

you could take Hermes to the small claims court.

do you have proof that an unopened box arrived?
e.g. pictures of untampered box on a set of scales showing a weight?
The case will be judged on the “balance of probabilities” when Hermes say they delivered a full box and your seller says an empty box.

I was thinking about the small claims court, but again if I loose that I'll be even more money out of pocket...... 🤔

The only evidence I have is from a pic of the box after it was opened by the recipient, he did have the Hermes delivery driver wait to witness the box being opened, as he knew something was wrong by how much it weighed. 
I'm trying to get the weight of the box off of Hermes as it must have been weighed somewhere in their system, so that would give me some indication of when the items were taken, but not really holding out much hope. 

Cheers Martyn 

Yes you’d have to pay for the small claims court (unless you have legal insurance which you haven’t answered).
its meant to be inexpensive but depends on the value of the parcel as to whether it’s worth it.

have you checked your home insurance for legal cover?

I'm not sure what good legal cover would do here, home insurance legal cover covers claims relating to your home, it's not a free (ish) way to get a lawyer for everything.

I don’t think that’s necessarily correct.
some of them cover consumer, employment, tax and motoring issues (convictions, faulty purchases not accidents).
as always you need to check the policy.
it usually is a good way to get free professional advice (people here are helpful but not always correct).

Personally I get a separate one after reading on here of a case where someone had an issue with their home insurer (you definitely can’t use a home insurance one to sue your home insurer).

They're not going to pay your filing fees, they might pay for a lawyer to represent you.  However, that is entirely unnecessary in the OP's case as their case is extremely simple.

So given the OP is going to have to pay the filing fees either way, what good is it to (maybe) have a lawyer on their side?

LaDerniereSemaine

lisyloo said:

born_again said:

lisyloo said:

did you pay by credit card or debit card?
Im wondering whether you can chargeback the delivery and the insurance (although that doesn’t cover loss of the item).

OP says item was delivered (I know minus bits) so Hermies provided the service paid for. So No chargeback rights.

What?? You think delivering an empty box and losing the contents s is ok?

What about the insurance?
if they won’t even communicate then it’s not fit for purpose.

anyway some e.g. Amex, payback immediately and the retailer only has 20 days to appeal, so some give the buyer the benefit of the doubt. Hermes may well just not bother appealing a small chargeback (their admin doesn’t sound fantastic).

I’ve had 3 small chargebacks (2 Amex 1 MasterCard) go through without challenge.

obviously if you chargeback the insurance you forfeit the right to use it or complain about it.

They didn't say it was OK but they are entirely correct that proof of delivery (of an empty box if needs be) is sufficient proof to defend an "item not received" chargeback.

The insurance isn't paying out because they believe the item was delivered correctly, there is no valid reason for a chargeback there either.

lisyloo

LaDerniereSemaine said:

lisyloo said:

LaDerniereSemaine said:

lisyloo said:

Lap said:

lisyloo said:

you could take Hermes to the small claims court.

do you have proof that an unopened box arrived?
e.g. pictures of untampered box on a set of scales showing a weight?
The case will be judged on the “balance of probabilities” when Hermes say they delivered a full box and your seller says an empty box.

I was thinking about the small claims court, but again if I loose that I'll be even more money out of pocket...... 🤔

The only evidence I have is from a pic of the box after it was opened by the recipient, he did have the Hermes delivery driver wait to witness the box being opened, as he knew something was wrong by how much it weighed. 
I'm trying to get the weight of the box off of Hermes as it must have been weighed somewhere in their system, so that would give me some indication of when the items were taken, but not really holding out much hope. 

Cheers Martyn 

Yes you’d have to pay for the small claims court (unless you have legal insurance which you haven’t answered).
its meant to be inexpensive but depends on the value of the parcel as to whether it’s worth it.

have you checked your home insurance for legal cover?

I'm not sure what good legal cover would do here, home insurance legal cover covers claims relating to your home, it's not a free (ish) way to get a lawyer for everything.

I don’t think that’s necessarily correct.
some of them cover consumer, employment, tax and motoring issues (convictions, faulty purchases not accidents).
as always you need to check the policy.
it usually is a good way to get free professional advice (people here are helpful but not always correct).

Personally I get a separate one after reading on here of a case where someone had an issue with their home insurer (you definitely can’t use a home insurance one to sue your home insurer).

They're not going to pay your filing fees, they might pay for a lawyer to represent you.  However, that is entirely unnecessary in the OP's case as their case is extremely simple.

So given the OP is going to have to pay the filing fees either way, what good is it to (maybe) have a lawyer on their side?

Free professional advice.
That can include telling them they are wasting their time.

lisyloo

LaDerniereSemaine said:

lisyloo said:

born_again said:

lisyloo said:

did you pay by credit card or debit card?
Im wondering whether you can chargeback the delivery and the insurance (although that doesn’t cover loss of the item).

OP says item was delivered (I know minus bits) so Hermies provided the service paid for. So No chargeback rights.

What?? You think delivering an empty box and losing the contents s is ok?

What about the insurance?
if they won’t even communicate then it’s not fit for purpose.

anyway some e.g. Amex, payback immediately and the retailer only has 20 days to appeal, so some give the buyer the benefit of the doubt. Hermes may well just not bother appealing a small chargeback (their admin doesn’t sound fantastic).

I’ve had 3 small chargebacks (2 Amex 1 MasterCard) go through without challenge.

obviously if you chargeback the insurance you forfeit the right to use it or complain about it.

They didn't say it was OK but they are entirely correct that proof of delivery (of an empty box if needs be) is sufficient proof to defend an "item not received" chargeback.

The insurance isn't paying out because they believe the item was delivered correctly, there is no valid reason for a chargeback there either.

You have conveniently ignored the point I made that small chargebacks are not always defended (and all the evidence is that Hermes won’t be bothered).

born_again

lisyloo said:

born_again said:

lisyloo said:

did you pay by credit card or debit card?
Im wondering whether you can chargeback the delivery and the insurance (although that doesn’t cover loss of the item).

OP says item was delivered (I know minus bits) so Hermies provided the service paid for. So No chargeback rights.

What?? You think delivering an empty box and losing the contents s is ok?

What about the insurance?
if they won’t even communicate then it’s not fit for purpose.

anyway some e.g. Amex, payback immediately and the retailer only has 20 days to appeal, so some give the buyer the benefit of the doubt. Hermes may well just not bother appealing a small chargeback (their admin doesn’t sound fantastic).

I’ve had 3 small chargebacks (2 Amex 1 MasterCard) go through without challenge.

obviously if you chargeback the insurance you forfeit the right to use it or complain about it.

All I was doing was giving the rules on any Chargeback. Not a opinion on what is right or wrong.

But as far as Chargebacks go. Your package has been delivered & that is as far as card regulations go. As your claim would be non receipt of service. Which as the parcel was delivered, the service was provided.

Just the same as the receiver tried a chargeback for non receipt of goods, would be rejected as you can prove delivery. 
This would even work with a empty box, and delivered to a wrong address.

What basis would you chargeback their, as you say "Insurance" which it is not. Hermes call it "Cover"

Do not think that because their admin is poor that the financial team is as bad where chargebacks are concerned. This is of course assuming it is a item that they cover.
https://www.myhermes.co.uk/send-a-parcel/what-i-can-and-cannot-send

lisyloo

I am not the OP (it’s not my claim).
I disagree with you.
this is exactly why having free professional advice is worthwhile because opinions vary (even professional ones Sometime).
a card company are the arbiter of what is acceptable in terms of chargebacks or not although of course the company can appeal if they wish to.

my personal experience is the card companies do little due diligence on relatively small amounts. I am
sumising this by having some refunded in very short periods of time (not long enough to investigate).

I don’t believe delivering an empty box and stealing the contents is legal (although I don’t know the level of proof available). There is no way you can say this is ok and counts as a delivery. Of course proving something is a different matter and we cannot comment on that without info from the OP.

born_again

Chargebacks are over & above your legal rights. They are regulations set in place by Visa, Mastercard & Amex. Each can be different. They are fair to both parties. Although some people think not.

So any legalities do not play a part in chargebacks. All they have to do is meet the criteria set by the card company to start the process. The retailer then has the right to contest. As I said above. Non receipt is easily rejected with proof of delivery. Something all couriers now do usually by pictures.
It makes no difference if a package is empty, containing a brick, or even if it went to the wrong address. 

Not happy with the chargeback regulations. Take it up with the card companies. Good luck with contacting them though. All I'm doing is saying what the regulations are in this case.

As a aside a refund on a chargeback is usually same day or the next day. But the retailer has 45  days to reject. If they reject then you get re-debited.

OP actually said packages delivered in their OP. 
But it may help on the point of what the goods were & if they were actually something that was covered by the "Cover"

Lap

So just thought I would update you on this issue.... 

Firstly this was an item (Pair of speakers) I had sold on another forum that I'm a member of & was sold to another person.
So charge back isn't an option
Hermes have now pretty much washed their hands of this case as as they keep telling me the item was delivered as far as they were concerned & apparently the box wasn't tampered with as far as they can tell (pic attached) not sure how they can tell from that pic....... 🤔 The Hermes delivery driver even witnessed this but they haven't even spoken to him....... 
Police really aren't interested either as they don't know which county the theft took place (I asked Hermes for the weight of the parcel, as it must have been weighed at their hub, they only keep the data for 14 days, even though they didn't start an investigation till 5 weeks later & only when I phoned to complain) 
After taking some legal advice, I was advised that even if I took them to court they would most likely side with Hermes as they had delivered the item. So proofing that it was stolen while in Hermes care would be difficult. 

As you can probably guess I'm not too happy with this as I'm now a few hundred pounds out of pocket