Do I have a route to appeal Parking Charge Notice?

EarlsdonUK

First, I wish to apologise, I started a couple of threads yesterday which were poorly thought out. I’ve tried to delete them but have been unsuccessful.

Having exchanged messages with Fruitcake and others, I accept there is already tons of useful advice on this site; but, to ‘newbies’ like me, it’s very complicated and it’s difficult to  sieve out the bits that are right for ones situation.

It seems I am likely to get the best advice if I provide as much detail of my circumstances as I can, I hope you expert guys have the energy and time to trawl through it…

I am the Registered Keeper of the vehicle in question.

On 31 December, I received a Parking Charge Notice from a private operator dated 22 December. I guess it arrived late because of Christmas postage delays.

The Notice claimed the vehicle was parked on private (residential) land on 16 December.

The address given for the land is confusing because one part relates to a location outside some flats; but the post code is for a different location two or three streets away.

The Notice includes 2 images: 

The first (date and time stamped) showing the front of my car and the registration number.  This image is close up, primarily of the reg no and bonnet, you can’t see the windscreen.

The immediate area around the vehicle is dark, it’s impossible to ascertain where is is parked, there are no road markings and no signage.

The second image is date/time stamped 13 seconds later, but does not show the reg no, just the upper part of the bonnet and whole of the windscreen. There is more context in that one can see a couple of other vehicles in the distance, and a building. As per the first image, there are no road markings and no signage.

Apart from these two images, there is no claim about period the vehicle was parked.

The Notice claims the terms and conditions were clearly displayed at the entrance and in prominent places.

As I say, the address given relates to two different locations.

The post code provided relates to a road with two ‘car parks’ on it. They both have clear entrances, into an area with bays on each side, leading to garages. The terms and conditions are displayed at the entrances and on the garage walls of these car parks.

The first part of the address, excluding the post code, relates to another road, which has a dead end which you turn right into. As you do, there’s a sign on the left saying it’s a private car park, but no terms and conditions are displayed.

The area isn’t a traditional looking car park at all. To the left, is a parking area with a row of vehicles parked as if they were in bays (but no markings) and some garages, there are T&Cs on two of the garage walls

If you’re following Google Maps, as you turn right toward the dead end, it’s marked as an extension of the road leading to it eg ‘blah blah Close’. On this side, there is a public footpath, houses, a fence but no signs, bays or markings. The footpath leads to an alleyway.

The two areas look distinctly different, a car park and garages (with two signs) on the left; a public highway, with footpath and no signs, on the right.

Having visited this location, it looks like the image(s) of vehicle were captured on the right, at the kerb of the footpath.

The signs, on the garage walls, state that charges apply 24/7 and that you must park in bays and display a permit; and that if any of these conditions are breached, you’ll be liable for the charges (£100 reduced by 40% if paid in 14 days). 

The signs appear to relate to the bays and garages on the left, not the area across the road where cars seem to park on the kerbside.

Given that the terms and conditions are not displayed at the entrance, and other signs are only on the garage walls side, it seems logical that a driver would park his/her vehicle up and walk over to the signs to check them out.

Having done so, one could be confused, ‘do the terms and conditions apply if I park near on the kerbside near the footpath, across the road from the parking bays and garages (as I say they are not marked but used as such but)’.

I believe I wouldn’t take the risk ie, I’d return to my vehicle and leave. I’m guessing this could take 5ish minutes, during which time, an operator could capture two images of my vehicle over a 13 second period - unbeknown to me given my back is turned, reading the signs.

Returning to the Notice, it states I have 28 days to pay the full amount, but that is reduced by 40% if paid within 14 days.

On the reverse, it states that the charge has been issued in accordance with the PoF 2012 and collection will be carried out in accordance with the Admin of Justice Act 1970.

In regard to appeals, it states I can either write to them or use their online portal. And that such appeals must be made within 28 days of the Notice date.

I have a bunch of questions, see below, but I may not be addressing the right matters, so any additional advice would be helpful; or if you have questions, please ask.

The matters that come to my mind are:

The advice on this site is to go for Plan A (complaint to owners) first. Fair enough, but what is my complaint + time is cracking on now, what if I don’t get a reply until after the 28 day limit has ended?

Do I appeal whether or not I get a reply from the owners + if I wait eg for 26 days to make an appeal, do I lose my opportunity to pay the discounted rate?

Is the fact that they have provided the address in error a route for appeal?

Is there a route to appeal if parked in the area where no terms and conditions were displayed at the ‘entrance’, and that the terms could only have been read by parking up, at the kerbside, probably meaning the vehicle was left unattended for a few minutes - before leaving?

The issue about PoF is complicated for me; but, based on what the Notice  states, is there a route to appeal?

If I appeal, is the process suspended ie if the appeal is rejected, will they accept 40% discount?

If you wish to refer to other posts or advice on this site or elsewhere, please be explicit as you can about how to access it.

Your advice and support will be very much appreciated.

earlsdonUK

Redx

Your questions should be numbered !

1) you would appeal as keeper within the timescale , regardless of any landowner complaint

2) yes you would appeal before day 28 , regardless

3) any discrepancy is fodder for an appeal , but g24 will reject any and all appeals , regardless of content , there is no profit in acceptance , so expect a rejection

4) poor signage and poor bay markings etc are ALWAYS grounds for an appeal

5) POFA non compliance is ALWAYS grounds for a keeper appeal

6) check the latest IPC CoP for rules on appeals and discount periods

The only noteworthy post is the newbies FAQ sticky thread near the top of the forum in announcements , it covers everything , even if it is unregulated and complicated

Do not expect acceptance of any appeal on any grounds at all , it will be rejected , they may reoffer the discount for a further period , hoping thatthe victim will pay up , easy money

EarlsdonUK

Many thanks Redx, if I knew how to amend, I’d number the questions - but will learn for next time. All good/helpful advice.

I have no read some of the advised well written and successful appeals, some include arguments I can steal.

I will now complain to the landowner, and start an appeal as advised by you on or around day 26, am I right to assume I count from day after notice was issued ie 22 December - even though we had the festive season, problems with postal delays and bank holidays etc?

Cheers, earlsdonUK

Redx

If in any doubt , do so on day 25 or day 24 following the PCN date , it needs to be received by day 28 , your choice when you do it , so do so in order that they receive it in good time. We cannot be any more specific than arrival by day 28 , so assume anytime after day 21 , your choice

It's actual days , irrespective of the time of year , so the day after is day 1 , etc

Your thread title asked if you have a route to appeal ? Yes you do , everyone does , based on the following

No Landowner authority
Poor and inadequate signage
Lighting
POFA 2012
CRA 2015
The relevant CoP

Etc

But having a route to appeal is no guarantee of success , few appeals result in a cancellation , appealing only shows that you engaged with the claimant , creating a paper trail ! It's not usually a win at the first goal partway through the game !

EarlsdonUK

Redx, once again, thanks. One can understand why these guys prey on unsuspecting motorists; and, I guess, it’s very lucrative for them. When I first opened the Notice letter, Bearing in mind it was NY Eve, I thought ‘!!!!!! it, it’s only £60’; there’s a part of me that still takes that position. Do I really need all this s**t, do I need the stress, etc. But I don’t like being done over, esp by companies such as G24, who are such charlatans. 

I’ve said it before, I really want to emphasise it, the likes of your good self, being prepared to use up their valuable time to assist people like me, is REALLY appreciated.

Cheers, earlsdonUK

Coupon-mad

Did you know the law is changing this year to regulate by Government intervention (the DLUHC) this rogue industry and they are clearly desperate to make hay while the sun shines?  Be careful and avoid private car parks entirely when you can.

Just read other G24 threads by Googling.  Your appeal would be about lack of consideration period.

Also try IAS (the IPC's well-documented and appalling kangaroo court) for the LOLs.

And because it looks reasonable to have tried every avenue to resolve the dispute and because G24 might just give up, if you throw evidence and stuff from the IPC code about Consideration periods.  No template at IAS stage.  Just robust evidence.

PLAN A first, though.

Having said the above, paying a rogue parking firm at the discount isn't an 'opportunity'.  The forum posts will disabuse you of that once you have Googled and read loads of G24 threads.

EarlsdonUK

Coupon-mad!

2.53am, shouldn’t you be getting some beauty sleep?!

In my estimation, I have just under two weeks to lodge an appeal/dispute, so plenty of time to research as you suggest; which I will do.

I’m still getting my head round all the acronyms, LOLs - IAS stage?

Given, as I have mentioned before, the Post Code in their Notice is incorrect ie for a completely different road/area; I’m considering - at day 25ish - lodging a dispute on that basis alone ie that the Notice should be cancelled and another issued with the correct address on it.

Assuming they do so, I wonder if that is a ‘Golden Ticket’ in that the new Notice is bound to be 4 weeks + after the claimed event?

I have a horrible feeling that’s just too simple, I’m braced!

earlsdonUK

Redx

IAS stage is the second stage ADR appeal process for any IPC member , the newbies FAQ sticky thread does explain it

The fifth post in the newbies FAQ sticky thread has all the acronyms and explanations

Just don't expect fairness or a quick solution , not in this corrupt unregulated industry

D_P_Dance

I have a horrible feeling that’s just too simple, I’m braced!

Sometimes it is that simple.  The best brains do not go into this industry, you are not dealing with John Lewis here. 

EarlsdonUK

Hello again, a question please, are private PCNs invoices; if so, must they include VAT numbers. If so and they don’t, can this be included in an appeal?

Coupon-mad

No because VAT is not applicable to parking charges, but yes they are invoices.