Private car sale, buyer asking for their money back (U.K. Sale)

Jje1

10 days ago I sold a 32 year old classic Ford car privately following an advert on eBay and now the buyer wants to return the car and get their money back.

The buyer contacted me through eBay and we concluded the car sale outside of eBay after a large amount of further conversations, WhatsApp discussions, 28 minute phone call, 50 photos (some at request of the buyer) and they buyer also taking professional advice prior buying.   At this point I’d like to add that the buyer was invited on multiple occasions to view the car but chose not to, paid for the car and had a firm collect the vehicle.

The buyer is now stating they want a refund as the car is not as described on 2 points below:

1. Marks in the paint / varying shinyness of the paint
2. A swage line not being “acceptably aligned” (it’s 3mm out on one line) between the door and front wing.

I have declined the return on the basis that these were suitably covered in the advert, messages, photographs and telephone call discussion, to which he has conceded in messages that, had he viewed, he would not have bought the car and had assumed the two items were ok.

On point 1) the fact the car had been relacquered was in the original advert and further clarified that there is some orange peel and also a few defects in the top coat that would likely machine polish out with a few example photos provided.  At no point does the advert say original mint condition unblemished flawless paintwork. He has conceded that the majority will polish out as I’d said prior to purchase, but now he doesn’t want to spend the money - note I accepted over £1000 less following him taking advice on the photos prior to purchase from a paint specialist.

On point 2) extensive photos were provided and no claim was made in regard to panel fit of individual swage line alignment (nor was it a noticeable issue), this was the purpose of extensive photos - I would also not class 3mm to be untypical of period build quality by Ford and have multiple photos of other cars with the same swage line mismatch. The buyer never entered any conversation on panel fit nor requested detailed description of panel fit. He is also alluding that it must have had the wing replaced as a result of a bump at some point and that the wing has no date stamp on it.  There is no history of the car having an accident, no MOT history detailing the need for wing replacement and no receipts in an extensive history file of any panel work.  The car is a 1 owner 31k mile car and the panel fit under the bonnet is commensurate with a factory fit panel including original paint and sealant.  Further coms with members of the Ford owners club have confirmed that not all cars had date stamps so you cannot assume no date stamp = panel replacement. The buyer has also removed a taped pinstripe down the side of the car exacerbating the situation as the only visual reference is now a swage line previously detracted by the existence of a pinstripe previously…so it could also be offered up that he has since modified the car and created the concern.

All the above messages, photos and adverts and telephone call instances I have saved.

He is now threatening its not as described and will take legal action…

Thoughts appreciated 

Grumpy_chap

Jje1 said:

10 days ago I sold a 32 year old classic Ford car privately following an advert on eBay and now the buyer wants to return the car and get their money back.

The buyer contacted me through eBay and we concluded the car sale outside of eBay after a large amount of further conversations, WhatsApp discussions, 28 minute phone call, 50 photos (some at request of the buyer) and they buyer also taking professional advice prior buying.   At this point I’d like to add that the buyer was invited on multiple occasions to view the car but chose not to, paid for the car and had a firm collect the vehicle.

The buyer is now stating they want a refund as the car is not as described on 2 points below:

1. Marks in the paint / varying shinyness of the paint
2. A swage line not being “acceptably aligned” (it’s 3mm out on one line) between the door and front wing.

I have declined the return on the basis that these were suitably covered in the advert, messages, photographs and telephone call discussion, to which he has conceded in messages that, had he viewed, he would not have bought the car and had assumed the two items were ok.

On point 1) the fact the car had been relacquered was in the original advert and further clarified that there is some orange peel and also a few defects in the top coat that would likely machine polish out with a few example photos provided.  At no point does the advert say original mint condition unblemished flawless paintwork. He has conceded that the majority will polish out as I’d said prior to purchase, but now he doesn’t want to spend the money - note I accepted over £1000 less following him taking advice on the photos prior to purchase from a paint specialist.

On point 2) extensive photos were provided and no claim was made in regard to panel fit of individual swage line alignment (nor was it a noticeable issue), this was the purpose of extensive photos - I would also not class 3mm to be untypical of period build quality by Ford and have multiple photos of other cars with the same swage line mismatch. The buyer never entered any conversation on panel fit nor requested detailed description of panel fit. He is also alluding that it must have had the wing replaced as a result of a bump at some point and that the wing has no date stamp on it.  There is no history of the car having an accident, no MOT history detailing the need for wing replacement and no receipts in an extensive history file of any panel work.  The car is a 1 owner 31k mile car and the panel fit under the bonnet is commensurate with a factory fit panel including original paint and sealant.  Further coms with members of the Ford owners club have confirmed that not all cars had date stamps so you cannot assume no date stamp = panel replacement. The buyer has also removed a taped pinstripe down the side of the car exacerbating the situation as the only visual reference is now a swage line previously detracted by the existence of a pinstripe previously…so it could also be offered up that he has since modified the car and created the concern.

All the above messages, photos and adverts and telephone call instances I have saved.

He is now threatening its not as described and will take legal action…

Thoughts appreciated 

For absolute clarity, is this a private sale or are you operating as a motor trader?

It is just some parts of your post seem to talk of the car as a vehicle of which you have limited knowledge but then you say it is a 1-owner car.  I have highlighted a clear example of the apparent discrepancy.  You say "no history" of this, that and the other but if you were a genuine private seller of a one-owner car, you would not have to rely on "no history" but would be more definitive "the car has never been in any accident".

If you sold as a Trader and this was a true remote purchase, then the buyer may be able to return for any reason or none.

What was the reason you took the sale outside of EBay?

tommyedinburgh

Ignore, block, do anything you need to in order to cease any engagement with them. 

Jje1

Grumpy_chap said:

Jje1 said:

10 days ago I sold a 32 year old classic Ford car privately following an advert on eBay and now the buyer wants to return the car and get their money back.

The buyer contacted me through eBay and we concluded the car sale outside of eBay after a large amount of further conversations, WhatsApp discussions, 28 minute phone call, 50 photos (some at request of the buyer) and they buyer also taking professional advice prior buying.   At this point I’d like to add that the buyer was invited on multiple occasions to view the car but chose not to, paid for the car and had a firm collect the vehicle.

The buyer is now stating they want a refund as the car is not as described on 2 points below:

1. Marks in the paint / varying shinyness of the paint
2. A swage line not being “acceptably aligned” (it’s 3mm out on one line) between the door and front wing.

I have declined the return on the basis that these were suitably covered in the advert, messages, photographs and telephone call discussion, to which he has conceded in messages that, had he viewed, he would not have bought the car and had assumed the two items were ok.

On point 1) the fact the car had been relacquered was in the original advert and further clarified that there is some orange peel and also a few defects in the top coat that would likely machine polish out with a few example photos provided.  At no point does the advert say original mint condition unblemished flawless paintwork. He has conceded that the majority will polish out as I’d said prior to purchase, but now he doesn’t want to spend the money - note I accepted over £1000 less following him taking advice on the photos prior to purchase from a paint specialist.

On point 2) extensive photos were provided and no claim was made in regard to panel fit of individual swage line alignment (nor was it a noticeable issue), this was the purpose of extensive photos - I would also not class 3mm to be untypical of period build quality by Ford and have multiple photos of other cars with the same swage line mismatch. The buyer never entered any conversation on panel fit nor requested detailed description of panel fit. He is also alluding that it must have had the wing replaced as a result of a bump at some point and that the wing has no date stamp on it.  There is no history of the car having an accident, no MOT history detailing the need for wing replacement and no receipts in an extensive history file of any panel work.  The car is a 1 owner 31k mile car and the panel fit under the bonnet is commensurate with a factory fit panel including original paint and sealant.  Further coms with members of the Ford owners club have confirmed that not all cars had date stamps so you cannot assume no date stamp = panel replacement. The buyer has also removed a taped pinstripe down the side of the car exacerbating the situation as the only visual reference is now a swage line previously detracted by the existence of a pinstripe previously…so it could also be offered up that he has since modified the car and created the concern.

All the above messages, photos and adverts and telephone call instances I have saved.

He is now threatening its not as described and will take legal action…

Thoughts appreciated 

For absolute clarity, is this a private sale or are you operating as a motor trader?

It is just some parts of your post seem to talk of the car as a vehicle of which you have limited knowledge but then you say it is a 1-owner car.  I have highlighted a clear example of the apparent discrepancy.  You say "no history" of this, that and the other but if you were a genuine private seller of a one-owner car, you would not have to rely on "no history" but would be more definitive "the car has never been in any accident".

If you sold as a Trader and this was a true remote purchase, then the buyer may be able to return for any reason or none.

What was the reason you took the sale outside of EBay?

Sorry yes to be clear it’s a private sale, it went outside eBay as the advert expired on eBay but we kept communicating.  It’s a 1 previous owner car prior to me (apologies that’s what I meant)

thanks

tacpot12

If this was a private sale, I would not encourage you to follow tommeyedinburgh's advice. I would advise you to write to them setting out your points of view, and confirming that you will not offer them a refund. I would also confirm whether or not you are prepared to try informal mediation. Informal mediation is not binding so you would never be forced into giving a refund if you were not happy to do so. The mediatior might help persuade the  buyer that they have no chance of succeeding with a court case. Then ignore them until the court papers arrive. File and organise all your evidence now as you may need to provide it to a solicitor and to a court.   

It falls to the buyer to prove "on the balance of probabilities" that you mis-described the car. Given the evidence that you have, I can't see a judge finding against you, so let him incur the cost of going to court. The judge might even award your costs against them!  

If the buyer does take legal action, it would be good if you had legal expense cover as part of your home insurance, but you can't add this now if you don't already have it, as you are now aware of potential liability and the communications trail will show this. 

Grumpy_chap

Jje1 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Jje1 said:

10 days ago I sold a 32 year old classic Ford car privately following an advert on eBay and now the buyer wants to return the car and get their money back.

The buyer contacted me through eBay and we concluded the car sale outside of eBay after a large amount of further conversations, WhatsApp discussions, 28 minute phone call, 50 photos (some at request of the buyer) and they buyer also taking professional advice prior buying.   At this point I’d like to add that the buyer was invited on multiple occasions to view the car but chose not to, paid for the car and had a firm collect the vehicle.

The buyer is now stating they want a refund as the car is not as described on 2 points below:

1. Marks in the paint / varying shinyness of the paint
2. A swage line not being “acceptably aligned” (it’s 3mm out on one line) between the door and front wing.

I have declined the return on the basis that these were suitably covered in the advert, messages, photographs and telephone call discussion, to which he has conceded in messages that, had he viewed, he would not have bought the car and had assumed the two items were ok.

On point 1) the fact the car had been relacquered was in the original advert and further clarified that there is some orange peel and also a few defects in the top coat that would likely machine polish out with a few example photos provided.  At no point does the advert say original mint condition unblemished flawless paintwork. He has conceded that the majority will polish out as I’d said prior to purchase, but now he doesn’t want to spend the money - note I accepted over £1000 less following him taking advice on the photos prior to purchase from a paint specialist.

On point 2) extensive photos were provided and no claim was made in regard to panel fit of individual swage line alignment (nor was it a noticeable issue), this was the purpose of extensive photos - I would also not class 3mm to be untypical of period build quality by Ford and have multiple photos of other cars with the same swage line mismatch. The buyer never entered any conversation on panel fit nor requested detailed description of panel fit. He is also alluding that it must have had the wing replaced as a result of a bump at some point and that the wing has no date stamp on it.  There is no history of the car having an accident, no MOT history detailing the need for wing replacement and no receipts in an extensive history file of any panel work.  The car is a 1 owner 31k mile car and the panel fit under the bonnet is commensurate with a factory fit panel including original paint and sealant.  Further coms with members of the Ford owners club have confirmed that not all cars had date stamps so you cannot assume no date stamp = panel replacement. The buyer has also removed a taped pinstripe down the side of the car exacerbating the situation as the only visual reference is now a swage line previously detracted by the existence of a pinstripe previously…so it could also be offered up that he has since modified the car and created the concern.

All the above messages, photos and adverts and telephone call instances I have saved.

He is now threatening its not as described and will take legal action…

Thoughts appreciated 

For absolute clarity, is this a private sale or are you operating as a motor trader?

It is just some parts of your post seem to talk of the car as a vehicle of which you have limited knowledge but then you say it is a 1-owner car.  I have highlighted a clear example of the apparent discrepancy.  You say "no history" of this, that and the other but if you were a genuine private seller of a one-owner car, you would not have to rely on "no history" but would be more definitive "the car has never been in any accident".

If you sold as a Trader and this was a true remote purchase, then the buyer may be able to return for any reason or none.

What was the reason you took the sale outside of EBay?

Sorry yes to be clear it’s a private sale, it went outside eBay as the advert expired on eBay but we kept communicating.  It’s a 1 previous owner car prior to me (apologies that’s what I meant)

thanks

How long did you own the car for?

caprikid1

Grumpy_chap said:

Jje1 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Jje1 said:

10 days ago I sold a 32 year old classic Ford car privately following an advert on eBay and now the buyer wants to return the car and get their money back.

The buyer contacted me through eBay and we concluded the car sale outside of eBay after a large amount of further conversations, WhatsApp discussions, 28 minute phone call, 50 photos (some at request of the buyer) and they buyer also taking professional advice prior buying.   At this point I’d like to add that the buyer was invited on multiple occasions to view the car but chose not to, paid for the car and had a firm collect the vehicle.

The buyer is now stating they want a refund as the car is not as described on 2 points below:

1. Marks in the paint / varying shinyness of the paint
2. A swage line not being “acceptably aligned” (it’s 3mm out on one line) between the door and front wing.

I have declined the return on the basis that these were suitably covered in the advert, messages, photographs and telephone call discussion, to which he has conceded in messages that, had he viewed, he would not have bought the car and had assumed the two items were ok.

On point 1) the fact the car had been relacquered was in the original advert and further clarified that there is some orange peel and also a few defects in the top coat that would likely machine polish out with a few example photos provided.  At no point does the advert say original mint condition unblemished flawless paintwork. He has conceded that the majority will polish out as I’d said prior to purchase, but now he doesn’t want to spend the money - note I accepted over £1000 less following him taking advice on the photos prior to purchase from a paint specialist.

On point 2) extensive photos were provided and no claim was made in regard to panel fit of individual swage line alignment (nor was it a noticeable issue), this was the purpose of extensive photos - I would also not class 3mm to be untypical of period build quality by Ford and have multiple photos of other cars with the same swage line mismatch. The buyer never entered any conversation on panel fit nor requested detailed description of panel fit. He is also alluding that it must have had the wing replaced as a result of a bump at some point and that the wing has no date stamp on it.  There is no history of the car having an accident, no MOT history detailing the need for wing replacement and no receipts in an extensive history file of any panel work.  The car is a 1 owner 31k mile car and the panel fit under the bonnet is commensurate with a factory fit panel including original paint and sealant.  Further coms with members of the Ford owners club have confirmed that not all cars had date stamps so you cannot assume no date stamp = panel replacement. The buyer has also removed a taped pinstripe down the side of the car exacerbating the situation as the only visual reference is now a swage line previously detracted by the existence of a pinstripe previously…so it could also be offered up that he has since modified the car and created the concern.

All the above messages, photos and adverts and telephone call instances I have saved.

He is now threatening its not as described and will take legal action…

Thoughts appreciated 

For absolute clarity, is this a private sale or are you operating as a motor trader?

It is just some parts of your post seem to talk of the car as a vehicle of which you have limited knowledge but then you say it is a 1-owner car.  I have highlighted a clear example of the apparent discrepancy.  You say "no history" of this, that and the other but if you were a genuine private seller of a one-owner car, you would not have to rely on "no history" but would be more definitive "the car has never been in any accident".

If you sold as a Trader and this was a true remote purchase, then the buyer may be able to return for any reason or none.

What was the reason you took the sale outside of EBay?

Sorry yes to be clear it’s a private sale, it went outside eBay as the advert expired on eBay but we kept communicating.  It’s a 1 previous owner car prior to me (apologies that’s what I meant)

thanks

How long did you own the car for?

Quite important really, does not need to demonstrate 300 cars a year to try and claim a non private sale, every trader has to start somewhere.

Goudy

As Tacpot states, it's down to them to prove it was probable you mislead them in the sale which would be almost impossible.

They chose not to view the car before buying it, that is down to them, not you.

At 32 years old, it will be considered a used vehicle so it would be accepted a vehicle of this age will have some defects, even if you didn't list all the defects in the advert, at this age it would be highly unlikely there wasn't any detects present and (if you aren't a trader) you are no expert on the subject anyway.

It's also a mass produced vehicle, it is more than probable it left the factory with some detects and at this age it has long passed it's expected life.

Basically the buyers wants to take you to court over the cosmetic condition of a 32 year old car you sold them because they think you, as a non professional have descibed it in an advert incorrectly, yet they never showed any diligence themselves to check it's condition before buying.
If I was you, court wouldn't be worrying me.

Grumpy_chap

I wonder whether the OP could share the text of how the car was described in the EBay ad?

Jje1

Thanks all - appreciate the advice. In regards to car dealing - I owned, insured, taxed and and MOT’d the car for nearly 2 years, spent a lot of money turning the car in to a near show car, am an active member of the ford XR Owners club and even through covid managed to take the car to a few shows with me. 

I’m certainly not a car dealer and am a full time employed professional for one of the UKs top aerospace business companies. 

The car was a weekend luxury and occasional show car but failing health means I’ve had to sell it - much that I didn’t want to

Grumpy_chap

For a genuine private sale, then I would normally advise to reply once with a clear statement of facts that you are not a trader, opportunity to view etc., reasonable expectations, that the car was "sold as seen" (except that might not be the correct phrase if the car was not seen) and as a private seller there is no right of return or refund.  Then end that you will not enter into any further correspondence or discussion.

Following which, block and ignore, but keep any messages for the sale of record and in case of (unlikely) small-claims action.

I am concerned, however, that there is enough doubt from the OP's choice of phraseology in this thread to suggest that they may be a Trader.  Even a full restore of a rare and appreciating car over a two-year period could be deemed as in the course of a business - it will then start to hinge on whether this is the first and only car the OP has restored and sold on, or whether there is a history of doing so. 

If some of the same phraseology used in this thread was in the advert "The car is a 1-owner 31k mile car" (but not ?) and the condition is that of "a near show car" (but there is some orange peel and defects in the top coat) then the risk is that the car is deemed to have been incorrectly described / mis-represented which would make the purchaser's case stronger.  Even a private purchase has some rights:
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/the-car-i-bought-has-a-problem-what-are-my-rights-aAnMC5b0ZzJb

In this case, details of the advert text would certainly help to make the position clearer.  Is the detail still available to view on EBay from listing number?

I do fear, though, that a purchase of a classic car unseen has all the hall-marks of a scam.  I'd very much like an XR4i 4x4 or similar, but would be mad to buy off EBay without viewing the vehicle and I assume any genuine seller would expect me to view the vehicle, even more so given the age and rarity of the vehicle suggesting the purchaser would be somewhat an enthusiast and willing to spend the time to travel and view.

Good luck OP and, if you can share anby more detail it will make it easier for the best and appropriate advice to be given.