Private car sale, buyer asking for their money back (U.K. Sale)

caprikid1

"Thanks all - appreciate the advice. In regards to car dealing - I owned, insured, taxed and and MOT’d the car for nearly 2 years, spent a lot of money turning the car in to a near show car, am an active member of the ford XR Owners club and even through covid managed to take the car to a few shows with me. "

I am not sure a trader would have taken the car to a few shows and MOT'd and insured the car for that long, unless the new owner could prove it was up for sale at those shows then the odds on the new owner proving that the OP was a trader is likely to be very very difficult. I would also not expect a trader to join an owners club etc. This feels very much like the actions of an owner and a cherished vehicle, the fact that there is no other trading history and the OP has a well paid job the Owner is going to be on an uphill struggle to prove he's a trader.

Regarding the issue of a potential replacement panel, I think given this is a 31,000 mile car the realistic expectations of all original panels at over 30 years old is unrealistic and not implied from what I can see..

motorguy

caprikid1 said:

"Thanks all - appreciate the advice. In regards to car dealing - I owned, insured, taxed and and MOT’d the car for nearly 2 years, spent a lot of money turning the car in to a near show car, am an active member of the ford XR Owners club and even through covid managed to take the car to a few shows with me. "

I am not sure a trader would have taken the car to a few shows and MOT'd and insured the car for that long, unless the new owner could prove it was up for sale at those shows then the odds on the new owner proving that the OP was a trader is likely to be very very difficult. I would also not expect a trader to join an owners club etc. This feels very much like the actions of an owner and a cherished vehicle, the fact that there is no other trading history and the OP has a well paid job the Owner is going to be on an uphill struggle to prove he's a trader.

Regarding the issue of a potential replacement panel, I think given this is a 31,000 mile car the realistic expectations of all original panels at over 30 years old is unrealistic and not implied from what I can see..

Private sale, clearly.

Sounds like buyers remorse.  Hes probably had some mate down the pub has criticised him for buying it at whatever he gave for it.

If he is persisting, then reply one final time with "This was a private sale, you took the opportunity to examine this 32 year old car before you bought it.  I therefore will not be refunding with you".

No mediation, no asking him how he feels, no negotiation.  "Sorry, no".  End of.

Jje1

thanks again thanks again, and again useful advice. Yes certainly not a trader in any form and the descriptions stated were as follows:

initial eBay advert
excellent condition for age and has been re lacquered
Further response to buyer request for more information stated:
been relacquered, no paint on rubbers or trim, orange peel on one wing, some dirt in the lacquer few and far between but recommend a machine polish
20 further detailed example photos provided of typical paintwork
further confirming likely need for machine polish on a 28 minute phone call
buyer conceded that the pictures didn’t concern them and would polish out
following purchase and delivery the buy also conceded that
a) the paint imperfections would likely polish out but doesn’t now want to spend the money
b) he had seen 2 of my other show cars and assumed this one to be as good (I stress assumed)
c) he has conceded that he should have viewed the car first

for me as an honest private seller I went above and beyond so the description and photos and he has assumed something better - and not viewed so I feel his issue is not that the car was misleadingly advertised but actually fell short of what he’d assumed in his own mind not stated in the correspondence.

as for wing fit I really do see this as a case of standard build quality variation and his failed diligence to review photos or view the car.

im not sure if it makes a difference but he has already done work to the car by removing pinstripes and polishing which I consider as an act of accepting the vehicle ?

Jje1

Is it worth me adding that I believe the advert, correspondence, photos, messages and phone calls all leading to the purchase are classed as the description….if so I am in no doubt what so ever that I have described the car to the best of my ability (again I am not a trader, mechanic, car or paint specialist) I am simply a guy who bought a car, did a bit of work to take it to some shows and has had to sell through I’ll health.

born_again

Jje1 said:

Thanks all - appreciate the advice. In regards to car dealing - I owned, insured, taxed and and MOT’d the car for nearly 2 years, spent a lot of money turning the car in to a near show car, am an active member of the ford XR Owners club and even through covid managed to take the car to a few shows with me. 

I’m certainly not a car dealer and am a full time employed professional for one of the UKs top aerospace business companies. 

The car was a weekend luxury and occasional show car but failing health means I’ve had to sell it - much that I didn’t want to

From OP.
>I sold a 32 year old classic Ford car<
>The car is a 1 owner 31k mile car<


If you have only owned it for 2 years, then it is not a 1 owner car. Unless someone failed to report change of registered keeper.

Grumpy_chap

So, this is clearly a private sale then and it would seem appropriate for the OP to respond (once) to the buyer to state that fact in a clear and calm manner, that the opportunity to view was offered and declined by the purchaser, the car was correctly described and the condition reflects reasonable expectations for a car of this age.  As such the purchaser has no right of return and the OP will not enter in to any further discussions but considers the matter closed.

That assumes the car was correctly described and not mis-represented as, if that is not the case, the purchaser does have more rights.

The OP does then need to hold their nerve and stick firmly to that line.

I would be nervous, though, that buying a "modern classic enthusiasts" car like this unseen could be a sign of an attempt at a scam of some kind.

Jje1

born_again said:

Jje1 said:

Thanks all - appreciate the advice. In regards to car dealing - I owned, insured, taxed and and MOT’d the car for nearly 2 years, spent a lot of money turning the car in to a near show car, am an active member of the ford XR Owners club and even through covid managed to take the car to a few shows with me. 

I’m certainly not a car dealer and am a full time employed professional for one of the UKs top aerospace business companies. 

The car was a weekend luxury and occasional show car but failing health means I’ve had to sell it - much that I didn’t want to

From OP.
>I sold a 32 year old classic Ford car<
>The car is a 1 owner 31k mile car<


If you have only owned it for 2 years, then it is not a 1 owner car. Unless someone failed to report change of registered keeper.

Again to be clear the advert stated 1 previous owner 31k mile car - I can confirm that there is no dispute or concern on this point between us. They buyer very much knows this and nearly bought the car when I bought it tbh….so this point doesn’t concern me tbh👍

Jje1

Grumpy_chap said:

So, this is clearly a private sale then and it would seem appropriate for the OP to respond (once) to the buyer to state that fact in a clear and calm manner, that the opportunity to view was offered and declined by the purchaser, the car was correctly described and the condition reflects reasonable expectations for a car of this age.  As such the purchaser has no right of return and the OP will not enter in to any further discussions but considers the matter closed.

That assumes the car was correctly described and not mis-represented as, if that is not the case, the purchaser does have more rights.

The OP does then need to hold their nerve and stick firmly to that line.

I would be nervous, though, that buying a "modern classic enthusiasts" car like this unseen could be a sign of an attempt at a scam of some kind.

Great advice thank you 👍

caprikid1

I can only assume the car was FWD, if you choose RWD classic fords in future I think you will find them a more sophisticated and friendly bunch.

[Deleted User]

Jje1 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Jje1 said:

10 days ago I sold a 32 year old classic Ford car privately following an advert on eBay and now the buyer wants to return the car and get their money back.

The buyer contacted me through eBay and we concluded the car sale outside of eBay after a large amount of further conversations, WhatsApp discussions, 28 minute phone call, 50 photos (some at request of the buyer) and they buyer also taking professional advice prior buying.   At this point I’d like to add that the buyer was invited on multiple occasions to view the car but chose not to, paid for the car and had a firm collect the vehicle.

The buyer is now stating they want a refund as the car is not as described on 2 points below:

1. Marks in the paint / varying shinyness of the paint
2. A swage line not being “acceptably aligned” (it’s 3mm out on one line) between the door and front wing.

I have declined the return on the basis that these were suitably covered in the advert, messages, photographs and telephone call discussion, to which he has conceded in messages that, had he viewed, he would not have bought the car and had assumed the two items were ok.

On point 1) the fact the car had been relacquered was in the original advert and further clarified that there is some orange peel and also a few defects in the top coat that would likely machine polish out with a few example photos provided.  At no point does the advert say original mint condition unblemished flawless paintwork. He has conceded that the majority will polish out as I’d said prior to purchase, but now he doesn’t want to spend the money - note I accepted over £1000 less following him taking advice on the photos prior to purchase from a paint specialist.

On point 2) extensive photos were provided and no claim was made in regard to panel fit of individual swage line alignment (nor was it a noticeable issue), this was the purpose of extensive photos - I would also not class 3mm to be untypical of period build quality by Ford and have multiple photos of other cars with the same swage line mismatch. The buyer never entered any conversation on panel fit nor requested detailed description of panel fit. He is also alluding that it must have had the wing replaced as a result of a bump at some point and that the wing has no date stamp on it.  There is no history of the car having an accident, no MOT history detailing the need for wing replacement and no receipts in an extensive history file of any panel work.  The car is a 1 owner 31k mile car and the panel fit under the bonnet is commensurate with a factory fit panel including original paint and sealant.  Further coms with members of the Ford owners club have confirmed that not all cars had date stamps so you cannot assume no date stamp = panel replacement. The buyer has also removed a taped pinstripe down the side of the car exacerbating the situation as the only visual reference is now a swage line previously detracted by the existence of a pinstripe previously…so it could also be offered up that he has since modified the car and created the concern.

All the above messages, photos and adverts and telephone call instances I have saved.

He is now threatening its not as described and will take legal action…

Thoughts appreciated 

For absolute clarity, is this a private sale or are you operating as a motor trader?

It is just some parts of your post seem to talk of the car as a vehicle of which you have limited knowledge but then you say it is a 1-owner car.  I have highlighted a clear example of the apparent discrepancy.  You say "no history" of this, that and the other but if you were a genuine private seller of a one-owner car, you would not have to rely on "no history" but would be more definitive "the car has never been in any accident".

If you sold as a Trader and this was a true remote purchase, then the buyer may be able to return for any reason or none.

What was the reason you took the sale outside of EBay?

Sorry yes to be clear it’s a private sale, it went outside eBay as the advert expired on eBay but we kept communicating.  It’s a 1 previous owner car prior to me (apologies that’s what I meant)

thanks

"Not as described" doesn't cover private sales anyway then. Basically they have no leg to stand on. Block them, move on.