Cancelled Insurance need help please.

caprikid1

How long have both vehicles been owned ? Who's name is on the log books ?

Belenus

youngman19 said:

Belenus said:

youngman19 said:

Sandtree said:

youngman19 said:

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

Jenni_D said:

Good spot.

Then yes, this could look suspicious to an insurance company. No doubt an entirely innocent act by the OP and Mum, and not intended in that way, but in effect still "fronting".

Especially if the mother's other car is insured with the same company, or they are somehow aware of its existence.  Her trying to insure a second car as 'main driver' with teenage son as a named driver, in addition to also being the main driver of the first car would surely set off alarm bells.  

Why can't someone have two cars and be main driver for legitimate reasons? Is that illegal?

(reasons I have already written above)

The question is who is the main driver of this "spare car"?

Insurers are concerned with "fronting", where an older/low risk person insurers a vehicle in their name with them as the main driver and adds a young/high risk person as a named driver. This results in a lowish premium as the main driver is low risk. In reality in some of these cases the main driver is the high risk driver and had this been declared the premiums would have been much higher.

A person can be the main driver on as many cars as they want as long as thats the truth... if someone has another main car, adds their kid on a second vehicle and the kid doesnt have access to any other vehicles then that starts smelling like a fronted policy.

Ultimately you need clarity from Hastings on exactly what grounds the cancellation has been made to enable you to formulate the complaint appropriately. 

Currently it is my mum. It is a very cheap car. I will be looking to buy my own car once I have saved up enough and something that suits me more. 

A cheap car is close to meaningless for insurance purposes.

The main risk that insurance companies take on is third party claims not claims for the insured vehicle.

An insurance policy for a cheap car risks a claim for maybe a few thousand pounds for damage, theft etc.

But the main risk is that the insured drivers of that cheap car could be responsible for an accident that causes many thousands of pounds of damage to an expensive car or, almost infinitely worse, causes injury or death resulting in claims for hundreds of thousands or many millions of pounds.

Young drivers of cheap cars are statistically responsible for a much higher proportion of serious and expensive accidents and claims than older drivers of expensive cars and that is reflected in the cost of insurance premiums.

Insurance companies are well aware of fronting to avoid such higher premiums and they will do all they can to avoid taking on such risks.

That is a great read, so just for my future car, would you say a cheap one won't be worth it? As I always thought we just need to show insurers that we can be sensible drivers and drive safely?

If you buy and insure your own car soon, the main factors in the cost of your insurance will be your age, the type of car you buy, your driving record and your address.

You can do nothing about your age or address but having a clean license will help.

The cost or value of the car you buy will be relatively unimportant but what will be taken into account is the type of car. A low powered common runabout should be cheaper to insure than a high powered sports car.

Don't take that as gospel. It is quite possible that Insurance companies will surcharge certain low powered runabouts if in their experience they are usually driven by youngsters and are involved in lots of accidents and claims.

Agreeing to have a Black Box fitted may make a significant difference to your premiums but be prepared to be paying in the thousands of pounds to insure even the cheapest runabout.

The only way you can 'show insurers that we can be sensible drivers and drive safely' is by not having any accidents and claims and that takes time.


From google.

How much does car insurance cost for under-25s? Generally, the younger you are, the more expensive your car insurance will be. This is because young drivers are statistically more likely to be involved in an accident

How does age affect my car insurance premiums? Age is one of the more significant factors that insurers look at when they calculate car insurance policies. Generally, younger drivers have less experience at the wheel than older drivers and so are statistically more likely to be involved in an accident.

Manxman_in_exile

@youngman19 - apologies for asking, but is English your first language?  I ask because the way you phrase your posts is a bit awkward and might inadvertantly make you sound as if you are being a bit evasive.

For instance, this bit from your opening post sounds a bit strange and may have adversely affected how some people have then approached your question:

youngman19 said:

...I am a new young driver. We had a spare 2nd car which me and my mum were going to get insured on. My mum said she will do everything as she had 3 non fault claims.
...

That sounds really odd referring to a second car as a "spare" - as if you only use it when the main car is broken or you've mislaid it... 

And then you say you and your mum "were going to get insured on" this spare car.  That sounds as if you've got this spare car knocking around the house that isn't currently used by anyone and also isn't insured to be used by anyone either.  Wasn't your mum already insured on this spare car that she had?

What would sound much more natural would be something like:  "I'd just passed my driving test and my mum had suggested adding me to the insurance policy on her second car.  She has one she uses for work and another as a runaround... "

If you are going to be helping your mum to write to or to email Hastings to confirm why the policy was cancelled and whether it needs to be declared in future as a cancelled policy, make sure that what you write doesn't raise even more questions about what you were trying to do.

ontheroad1970

youngman19 said:

caprikid1 said:

I have 7 cars in my house two drivers and one child who is soon to be driving, If I put my child on any of those cars with a provisional license it's probably fine, once he passes his test it would almost certainly be fronting.

As have been stated unless its a classic or a sports car, we know the truth , you know the truth and so does the insurance company. If it was not fronting the logical thing for you to do would be to insure it in your name, you did lots of quotes using your mums details ... to help her out ?. Who's cash paid for this second car ? Who chose it  ?.....

Get the second car insured in your name and put her as second driver, then you can drive your mum around and fix the issue. I would also put the car in your name too. Not sure why this was not done in the first place ? Actually I know exactly why it was not done, it would be far more expensive to do it legally. Think yourself luck, you may have had an accident and had a very difficult conversation with the police or the insurance company.

Wow a lot of assumption and judging according to what you think. If it makes you feel better then go ahead assume. Reality is far from it. I will be buying my own car next year, oh yeah wait, that wont seem suss to the insurers either!!! Maybe if you read previous comments properly you would have known this.

In all honesty, you will have to convince an insurance handler that is far more experienced than most posters on here.  They will have heard all the excuses and their variants before, so you will have to work very hard to counter the assumptions of the insurance company, and be prepared to back it up with some evidence - though what that evidence would be, I don't know.  Your explanation could be plausible, but you will need a good deal of credibility to make it so.  Your previous actions have not helped, and it may be irretrievably doomed.  When something is likely to be a little complex it is usually unwise to go through online aggregators, as they are based on normal parameters only, and make lots of assumptions in their agreements to cover, which not everyone reads.

pinkshoes

youngman19 said:

NO absolutely not. Please don't assume this. We know what this means and I do not even need a car to get around as my work is close by. We are using this car as a second car to get my nan to her hospital appointments. When my mum is at her work then I will take her.

I'm afraid this is still classified as "fronting". 

If you will be taking your nan when your mum is at work then you are the main driver. She would clearly use her own car if she wasn't at work... You would therefore need to be the main driver.

Ultimately, you have said that you have a low income between you, and struggling to pay for things. The best thing to do is probably to sell the car as you have already said you can walk to work.

A second car with insurance, tax, MOT and petrol etc... per year for a 19 year old driver is going to cost a LOT. It would be far cheaper to just take your nan to hospital in a taxi.

Herzlos

youngman19 said:

Yes, she always has fully comp insurance for commuting and business. She only uses the other one to work and business and does not want to go over her stated mileage hence this cheap runaround. I am only insured to take my nan hspital when my mum has work at that time

As innocent as this appears to be, you must be able to appreciate how bad it actually looks to a cynic.

I'm assuming the main car is on a PCP/Lease deal with a lowish mileage limit and the spare car is to use to avoid going over said limit?

The spare car is also used to take your nan to hospital appointments if your mum is at work? So being used by you.

Given the mileage overage fees are pretty low (maybe 20p/mile), is that actually cheaper?

Who actually puts most miles on the spare car?


To an insurance company or cynic, it looks exactly like the main car is your mums, and the spare car is yours, but you're fronting by pretending that your mum is the main driver.

Sandtree

youngman19 said:
Thank you for this advice. Learning  alot from here from people who genuinely give advice without judging

I'm often both, judgemental and trying to give advice...

Personally, certainly compared to some other threads, I dont think people on this thread have been that bad or judgemental... I tend to add some extra words into my answers because things are rarely black and white and so temper my answers slightly. So certainly from some of your posts I would agree that an insurer's initial reaction would be its a fronted policy but the ex-call centre agent in me wants to probe the answers more as "joe public" often give incomplete answers and can incriminate themselves when they've actually done nothing wrong.

As previously said, the first step needs to be for your mother to contact their former broker and ask for clarification on the exact grounds that it was cancelled - the three most obvious possibilities are fronting, actual false declaration or assumed false declaration (based on the quotes you did).

Idiot_Savant

pinkshoes said:

youngman19 said:

NO absolutely not. Please don't assume this. We know what this means and I do not even need a car to get around as my work is close by. We are using this car as a second car to get my nan to her hospital appointments. When my mum is at her work then I will take her.

. It would be far cheaper to just take your nan to hospital in a taxi.

And, arguably, safer...

born_again

youngman19 said:

Hello Forum, I am back again for some advice

I am a new young driver. We had a spare 2nd car which me and my mum were going to get insured on. My mum said she will do everything as she had 3 non fault claims.

So can we confirm that his car is currently uninsured & thus on SORN?

As someone else said. Get yourself as main driver & mother as additional driver. This will help you in the future when you get your own car as you will be building up your own NCD 👍

victor2

born_again said:

youngman19 said:

Hello Forum, I am back again for some advice

I am a new young driver. We had a spare 2nd car which me and my mum were going to get insured on. My mum said she will do everything as she had 3 non fault claims.

So can we confirm that his car is currently uninsured & thus on SORN?

As someone else said. Get yourself as main driver & mother as additional driver. This will help you in the future when you get your own car as you will be building up your own NCD 👍

Another benefit from the above (assuming you sort out the state you are currently in) is that adding your mother might bring down the policy cost. My DD saved quite a bit on her insurance by adding me as a named driver, although she is the main driver.

Mind you, if your mother has had a few claims, even if non-fault, it might not help that much.