Motoring penalties

Norman_Castle

sevenhills said:

Username03725 said:

Maybe the authorities would prefer drivers to slow down, rather than take photos of them speeding and send that photo through the post a few days later. Maybe.

I guess it doesn't work though, motorists pay over half a million pounds per day in speeding fines.

What would work, more education or bigger and fairer fines?

They do work, millions of motorists slow down every day because of them.

MEM62

sevenhills said:

MEM62 said:

sevenhills said:

a course is not as effective as an endorsement.

Please state you source / evidence for that statement.  

It's just a statement, but it is shame that the Government do not base penalties on evidence. Unless you know different.

Fair enough, but it is a statement without foundation.   As for penalties based on evidence, I will accept that our system is not perfect.  But, you sometimes need to live in other countries before you can appreciate that it is better than many.  Ultimately, you have the, right to stand in court and have the evidence against you presented, tested and offer a defence.  In cases where the evidence stands up it is true that the 'punishment' dished out is not always consistent or seems to fit the severity of the offence but when you have individual judges / magistrates dealing with these cases this will always be the case.  What you deem to be an appropriate punishment may not be seen to be so by others.      

sevenhills said:

MEM62 said:

sevenhills said:

a course is not as effective as an endorsement.

Please state you source / evidence for that statement.  

Like the need to advertise speed cameras and paint them yellow, it's almost like they don't want to catch people speeding.

In many cases they don't.  The cameras are supposed to be a deterrent.  They are highly visible to encourage you to slow down and are usually placed in places where there is a higher number of incidents in order to try and reduce them.  It is not always about revenue collection.       

ontheroad1970

Norman_Castle said:

sevenhills said:

Username03725 said:

Maybe the authorities would prefer drivers to slow down, rather than take photos of them speeding and send that photo through the post a few days later. Maybe.

I guess it doesn't work though, motorists pay over half a million pounds per day in speeding fines.

What would work, more education or bigger and fairer fines?

They do work, millions of motorists slow down every day because of them.

Many speed up once out of the range of the camera.  The hilarious ones are the ones that slow down for each camera in an average speed camera zone.

Username03725

sevenhills said:

1) In a previous post, someone commented that they thought it was justified for the police not to fine motorists for some offences.

2) Surely its endorsements and fines that educate and deter motorist from committing offences?

3) Motorists caught driving a vehicle with illegal tyres risk a £2,500 fine and three penalty points on their driving licence; yet they could also be given a vehicle rectification notice.

4) I believe some offences now take into account a persons earnings when there is a fine. This is all rather complicated and open unfairness.

5) There are educational courses that can be used instead of a fine, speed awareness courses, but people know they are speeding, a course is not as effective as an endorsement.

6) Millions must be raised through fines, surely that is a great way to fund the police or the government?

1) In some cases that's correct. Not every offence is a malicious or belligerent act done purposefully and with intent. Inadvertently creeping a little over the speed limit (e.g.) isn't a hanging offence. I've been in that exact position as a youth (17, I'm now 60) and still recall the finger wagging I received.

2) Not necessarily. As an example the Speed Awareness Course is much better at educating drivers about speeding and all that goes with it. You should do one, apparently they're very informative. The deterrent for me is not to get caught - either way it'll cost me money, potentially time and maybe points. Any one of those three is something I'd rather avoid. A clean licence is a nice to have.

3) A £2,500 fine is v rare and right at the upper limit of fines available for that offence. Again, if you're stopped and your tyres fail a check the requirement to get them sorted and [usually] prove it within a few days is enough. 

4) Already answered but the idea that a shop worker (as an example) should be fined at the same rate as a multi-national's CEO is ridiculous. £100 to the low paid worker is an enormous amount relative to income. The CEO won't even notice it - how is that fair, and where's the impact on the CEO? Fines proportionate to income are clearly much fairer, and it's not complicated at all. You produce evidence of income when found guilty and the fine is easily looked up against that. 30 seconds.

5) That's just your view.  Anecdotally lots of people go onto forums or discuss with friends & colleagues, to praise the SAC as an eye-opener and how it lifted the veil of how speed limits work and which roads are subject to different limits and how to identify them. Personally that's been great for me; never done one but having read so much about them I have no problem at all about knowing what any speed limit is in almost any situation, so there's an indirect benefit.

6) Yes. Govt needs money faster than you can imagine so any opportunity to raise additional money through fines is likely to appeal to them That doesn't mean they should go beyond what's reasonable; if you want to be fined for jaywalking like in the US that's up to you. I don't, nor do I want to be fined for pootling round the park on my bike without a helmet on. Etc etc. Govts shouldn't exceed an acceptable position on fines just to make up for a shortfall in their expenditure.

sevenhills

MEM62 said:

But, you sometimes need to live in other countries before you can appreciate that it is better than many.

I would love to be knowledgeable about how other countries systems work, our MPs go on sponsored trips to various countries, but I don't believe it's about gaining knowledge most of the time.

sevenhills

Username03725 said:

As an example the Speed Awareness Course is much better at educating drivers about speeding and all that goes with it.

If they work, they should be compulsory, I don't believe in punishment for the sake of it, unless it deters.

Username03725

sevenhills said:

Username03725 said:

As an example the Speed Awareness Course is much better at educating drivers about speeding and all that goes with it.

If they work, they should be compulsory, I don't believe in punishment for the sake of it, unless it deters.

No. They work for some, but they're an alternative to points so it follows that if you offer the SAC to everyone there is no deterrent to the hard core regular speeders who would just keep showing up for the course and then carrying on.

You're offered a SAC if your speed was within a reasonable amount (the actual upper limits for a SAC are easy to find), AND you haven't been on one within the previous 3 years. 

Been caught but not massively over the limit and not been caught for a while? Here's a course that can help you to improve your driving. You again sir? Points, no easy option this time.

theatretony

sevenhills said:

A subsequent freedom of information request, submitted by Mr Hamilton, has discovered that in the past year alone over 26,000 people have been caught speeding on this stretch of road at a cost of total £2.6m.

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/transport/pure-moneymaking-leeds-firefighter-speed-camera-fury-as-26000-caught-on-same-stretch-of-road-3458705?fbclid=IwAR3c9FF2GOXrr_jjyQAwM45Q-mf8FfMrfLlaUkGQd2FioI0ibLI0nbhH6zo

And I have just got a notice through the post for this exact location... I use this road multiple times a week, and thought I always stick to the limit - I was also caught at 39...

TooManyPoints

Mark Hamilton, a retired 30 year veteran of the West Yorkshire fire service, was travelling along the A64, running between Temple View Road and the Hope Inn, last month when he was flashed doing 39mph in what he thought was a 40mph zone.

The question Mr Hamilton may ask himself is why did he believe the limit was 40mph? If he answers that honestly (probably along the lines of "It was a dual carriageway and I thought they were automatically 40" or "It was a wide road and looked like it was 40") he may benefit from an awareness course. He would then learn that where there is a system of street lighting and there are no signs to the contrary, then (unless it's a motorway) the limit is 30mph.

sevenhills

TooManyPoints said:

The question Mr Hamilton may ask himself is why did he believe the limit was 40mph? If he answers that honestly (probably along the lines of "It was a dual carriageway and I thought they were automatically 40" or "It was a wide road and looked like it was 40") he may benefit from an awareness course. He would then learn that where there is a system of street lighting and there are no signs to the contrary, then (unless it's a motorway) the limit is 30mph.

I have recently reported an issue to the council where a new estate has been built and the new street going thought the estate has no speed limit signs. Which also invalidates a change in the speed limit in the next street. This was reported months ago.