How do ordinary people make the switch to electric vehicles ?

Grumpy_chap

motorguy said:

However NONE of your figures factor in fuel costs.  

That is absolutely correct.

And I have said already that an EV total-cost-of-ownership comes out favourably, especially when considering the £5k delta that you referenced above in the Corsa example.  That is obviously improved further if assessing the £3k PCP delta.

However, the vast majority of people are looking at things at a far more simple level - they are not doing payback calculations, NPV, LCA or any other form of detailed assessment.

I am in the minority - several years ago I was doing a high mileage and did a full pay-back calculation to demonstrate that I could have a brand new (though less desirable) diesel car and the fuel savings over keeping the old petrol would mean the car became effectively free.

motorguy said:

My original proposition was that an electric car was quite an easy sell, 

Except that the sales staff in the dealership won't be bothered.  If there's an easy sale at £14k for an ICE or £20k equivalent EV, they'll simply take the easy sale and the quick-commission.

Poor sales service on cars has always been my experience ever since I began driving.  Indeed, the poor service is so embedded in car dealers that is probably the biggest reason that I am currently in bangernomics land.  

jimbo6977

I want a Nissan ENV200 Combi with the XL extension  bolted on but it doesn't exist. You can only have the extension on a van, but I need the seats. 

motorguy

Grumpy_chap said:

motorguy said:

However NONE of your figures factor in fuel costs.  

That is absolutely correct.

And I have said already that an EV total-cost-of-ownership comes out favourably, especially when considering the £5k delta that you referenced above in the Corsa example.  That is obviously improved further if assessing the £3k PCP delta.

However, the vast majority of people are looking at things at a far more simple level - they are not doing payback calculations, NPV, LCA or any other form of detailed assessment.

I am in the minority - several years ago I was doing a high mileage and did a full pay-back calculation to demonstrate that I could have a brand new (though less desirable) diesel car and the fuel savings over keeping the old petrol would mean the car became effectively free.

They dont have to - its as simple as "with an electric car, your monthly payment is going to be less than your combined monthly payment on a petrol car and the fuel costs".

Thats easy.  Doesnt require a Mathematics degree.

Its coming, its happening.  Just have a look at how hard Peugeot / Citroen / Vauxhall are pushing.  People are being forced to pay silly money for petrol.  It wont happen overnight, but its easy to see it happening.

motorguy

Grumpy_chap said:

motorguy said:

My original proposition was that an electric car was quite an easy sell, 

Except that the sales staff in the dealership won't be bothered.  If there's an easy sale at £14k for an ICE or £20k equivalent EV, they'll simply take the easy sale and the quick-commission.

Poor sales service on cars has always been my experience ever since I began driving.  Indeed, the poor service is so embedded in car dealers that is probably the biggest reason that I am currently in bangernomics land.  

Of course they'll be bothered, and heres the reason why - they are on commission to sell cars.  

They dont sell cars on list price, they sell cars on the monthlies.

Give them even £1 more commission to sell the electric car and they'll sell them.  Give them the choice between not selling a car and selling an electric one and they'll sell the electric one.  Target them to sell a percentage electric cars per month and they'll sell a percentage electric cars per month.  

Thats how sales people work.

And that will come when the manufacturer deems they want it to.  Just like MINI told their franchises to drop the percentage of diesels sold in preparation for them phasing them out, and just like the manufacturers tell the franchises they must sell a certain amount of finance packages from their finance divisions, the manufacturers will at some point lean on the franchises to maintain / gain market share and at that point the sales people will sell.

You might think they sit there and scratch their nuts and do sod all, but they do hit their targets otherwise they're out.  

And if you're consistently getting bad attitude when you try to buy a car then you're either very very unlucky finding only the bad dealerships or maybe the problem isnt them, Grumpy Chap?   

Nebulous2

Nebulous2 said:

I've posted recently about this, but I've dipped my toe in the water by leasing a leaf.  Just over £200 a month for three years, total cost under £9k.  Its a £30k car and I'd normally expect a new vehicle to lose 50% of retail in three years, or £15k. My lease is costing about two thirds of the likely depreciation cost. 

Buying cars is a mixture of factors including emotion, with finance playing a greater or lesser role for different people. That may be difficult to accept on a money-saving site, where money will play a big role for most of us. You only need to read the loans section to see people with car deals they cannot afford, desperate to get out. 

I was reading and learning about electric cars, with a plan to get one eventually, but a belief that they were still too expensive. I began to get advertising for them and saw some quoting monthly costs below £200 a month. That made me sit up and take interest. I often compare costs by referring to something else. I reduced my council tax by £230 a month earlier this year so my reference point was I'm saving more than that on council tax. 

I went as far as get some quotes for leases, with more miles and a shorter lease they came in just over £200. I probably still wouldn't have bothered, but then saw prices rise and stock disappear fast so I jumped in.  No great cost analysis needed - a simple calculation of the 3 year cost was enough for me. 

Sales people vary, but it is easier to lose my custom than gain it. We bought a Meriva on a scrappage deal and were very satisfied with the deal / dealer. We traded it for a Zafira, with the same dealer and again were very happy.

We kept it for over 3 years, then I decided to trade it for another Zafira. We went one evening, got to the showroom with over an hour until closing time, to find it was busy and we were ignored for 20 minutes. I then went to the managers office and said. "We came here tonight to buy a car, we've waited over 20 minutes, can you get someone to talk to us?" He did very quickly, but the guy was hopeless. Possibly annoyed at being asked to speak to us, he was arrogant, refused to deal, didn't want to remove things like gap insurance and wouldn't give us a written quote. 

Its a big company, with mutiple dealerships, but I think its unlikely I'll ever be in one of their showrooms again. They got a number of important service points right over years;  I got two good deals, good servicing, there was an issue with a service plan which they resolved and a recall which was also handled well. 

The clock started ticking when they ignored me in the showroom. The manager got an opportunity to resolve it and made a half-hearted attempt to do so. The salesman then blew it again. Years of credit lost in an hour. 

fred990

Sea_Shell said:

So in other words, they're cheap to run...at the moment!!!😉

Indeed....the early adopters and electron guzzlers hopefully will foot the bill. 'Ludicrous performance' versions, 2.5t 'lifestyle vehicles', electric powered everything including preheated interiors for wimps, how are they going to save the planet unless all powered from renewables? Imagine the c02 just to build the infrastructure for these people? 

I'll start looking when it's so serious (and not just a plan to engineer a new industrial revolution to part people from their money) such that cars are lightweight, have wind up windows, a free ice scraper and the battery only powers the wheels. 

motorguy

fred990 said:

Sea_Shell said:

So in other words, they're cheap to run...at the moment!!!😉

Indeed....the early adopters and electron guzzlers hopefully will foot the bill. 'Ludicrous performance' versions, 2.5t 'lifestyle vehicles', electric powered everything including preheated interiors for wimps, how are they going to save the planet unless all powered from renewables? Imagine the c02 just to build the infrastructure for these people? 

I'll start looking when it's so serious (and not just a plan to engineer a new industrial revolution to part people from their money) such that cars are lightweight, have wind up windows, a free ice scraper and the battery only powers the wheels. 

It'll be serious when we move the majority of people away from personal private transport.  Its quite bizarre that in and around our cities people have 2 or 3 cars, all of which do nothing for 95% of the time.

Thats where the win is - short term car hire / peer to peer hire.  Rent a car for the short amount of time you need it, use public transport for the bulk of the rest, uber or similar for the rest.

People will bleat about how the public transport system couldnt cope with that but it can in many cities already, plus the country has now moved to a model where a lot of people can work from home, so no need for the commuting drudge to work for many.

And whilst its not perfect, removing the intensity of cars producing toxic and carcenogenic fumes practically at face level in our towns and cities and replacing them with electric cars with electric generated away from our cities is a step in the right direction.  

Grumpy_chap

motorguy said:

Of course they'll be bothered, and heres the reason why - they are on commission to sell cars.  

They dont sell cars on list price, they sell cars on the monthlies.

Give them even £1 more commission to sell the electric car and they'll sell them.  Give them the choice between not selling a car and selling an electric one and they'll sell the electric one.  Target them to sell a percentage electric cars per month and they'll sell a percentage electric cars per month.  

Thats how sales people work.

And that will come when the manufacturer deems they want it to.  Just like MINI told their franchises to drop the percentage of diesels sold in preparation for them phasing them out, and just like the manufacturers tell the franchises they must sell a certain amount of finance packages from their finance divisions, the manufacturers will at some point lean on the franchises to maintain / gain market share and at that point the sales people will sell.

You might think they sit there and scratch their nuts and do sod all, but they do hit their targets otherwise they're out.  

And if you're consistently getting bad attitude when you try to buy a car then you're either very very unlucky finding only the bad dealerships or maybe the problem isnt them, Grumpy Chap?   

What is a punter meant to do?  Go to the Dealer and beg to be allowed to buy a car?  That is not going to happen regularly unless the customer is desperate:

BOWFER said:

Colleague here just asked if I could call the local Nissan dealer on the off-chance they had a Leaf in stock.
They've got one, he's hot-footing it over now.

That desperation can't possibly be the norm.  Particularly at a premium brand where the need can always be met at 2/3rd the price point.  That means the service has to be to-notch as the customer clearly has a significant amount of discretion in their choice.  Getting a new car is an entirely discretionary choice.

In fact, when I enquired about the ES, that would have pandered to the "monthlies" target if that's what the sales person prefers - selling finance not the car.  
Lexus marketing had successfully targeted me with an e-mail that got me from not changing my car (just something that I'd need to do in due course) and I'd never really thought of Lexus as a "brand for me" before to:

• review the Lexus models and pick one I felt would work
• Assess online against competitor models (I even wrote in another thread on here about assessing against the TM3LR)
• Check the offer against brokers
• Got me in to the showroom, only to be met with the killer line "that model is not really that good Sir" - it doesn't offer much route back for either the Sales person or the customer

Even when Dealers have put the effort in to secure my business, they totally blow it. 
Many years ago I wanted a Rover 414 SLi saloon and one evening driving home from work, I noticed the local used car Dealer had one on the forecourt - it was even in the best colour, British Racing Green - and the price was just about in the limit of what I'd been saving up. 
Come the weekend, I polished my MG Metro to within an inch of it's life so it would look good for a trade in and duly visited the Dealer only to be told the car was already gone. 
The Salesman said "wait there, let me check my stock list, I can see what we have at our other branches or due in"
A short wait later and the Salesman emerges all excited "Yep, we've got just the perfect car for you in our neighbouring branch - I've called them up and it is still there.  I've asked them to get it ready for you and put a hold on it, so let me run you over to look at it"
Naively, I simply agreed and off we go chatting about the features of the car as we go.
Leapt out the car, met by the eager colleague at the other branch and shown the "perfect" car to my utter disappointment. 
Sitting in front of me was a sporty (but not XR2i) Fiesta with the headlight hanging loose over the bumper. 
I held my nerve and said "so, where's the car I'm looking at?" 
The overly excited response from both salesmen "this is it - the perfect car for you, ideal moving from the Metro"
I simply shrugged and said "but I want a Rover 414" and was met with silence before my annoyance set in and my next question was "why have you wasted my time bringing me here to show me this?" and then on the receiving end of abuse from the Salesmen for wasting their time (!)

I did eventually get a 414SLi from a Rover dealer a few months later, and I loved it.  It was not better than any other car of the time, but it was the car I wanted, which made up for any shortcomings and I absolutely loved it.


So, car sales representatives are absolutely useless in my experience. 

It does seem as though the salesman in 1992 and at the Lexus dealer recently were unduly swayed in what I'd want next by what I had already - the sporty Fiesta being similar to the MG Metro and the UX being more similar to my Focus.

For a discretionary purchase, the want is always as important as the need.  In the case of a car, when the need (desperation) is not there, it is all want and all discretionary, so the sales representative needs to work to make me part with my finance agreement.

If anyone ever wants me to buy a car, they need to make me feel that my custom is valued as I won't ever be begging to be allowed to buy.



AFTERNOTE:  I notice with the Lexus, the car they had unregistered in the showroom in September (which was the exact configuration I'd have purchased apart from preferred colour choice) had list price £36k and the Lexus marketing e-mailed offer £32k 0% finance PCP (but I'd not mentioned that offer before being told the ES is not very good) was registered and on the forecourt at £36k 5.9% finance as a used car when I walked past yesterday evening.  Perhaps, the car industry has worked wonders with persuading us there is a genuine shortage of vehicles and some unsuspecting victim will buy that car and pay more used than the new car promoted by Lexus.  Scary - but it is Halloween 

Grumpy_chap

motorguy said:

If they're doing something wrong or showing me the wrong car or going down a rabbit hole i'll tell them and we generally get past it.

So, please tell me, how do you get past the first comment from a Salesman when asking about a particular model of car and the response "well, they are not very good cars"?

That, to me, offers no route of return for either the Salesman or the customer (unless the customer says "I don't care that they are rubbish, I'll take one anyway").

Had the Salesman said something along the lines of "The ES is a fantastic car so I'll ask my colleague to bring one round for you, but let me also show you the UX which you might like and it has the hatchback flexibility that you have in your Focus..." I would probably have still walked out with an order placed for an ES.

Sea_Shell

What sort of miles per kWh are people getting from their EVs?

What tariffs are you currently on?

How do you see your costs increasing once you're on the cap (approx 21ppkwh)?

What if prices hit 30-35ppkwh?