PIP mobility question

[Deleted User]

I am about to apply for a transfer from DLA (over 15 years claiming) to PIP - Since my mobility is now extremely poor and I am fed up with waiting

I have asked my local CAB for advice and they agree that it would probably be a good idea

Just one query - the rules appear very weird

In that if someone can move between 20 and 50 metres - they can be assessed "without aids" - but all of the other descriptors are stated "with or without aids"

I guess that I am asking what do I do - I cannot move anywhere near 20 metres without aids - but probably more than 50 metres with aids...

poppy12345

Deleted_User said:

I am about to apply for a transfer from DLA (over 15 years claiming) to PIP - Since my mobility is now extremely poor and I am fed up with waiting

I have asked my local CAB for advice and they agree that it would probably be a good idea

Just one query - the rules appear very weird

In that if someone can move between 20 and 50 metres - they can be assessed "without aids" - but all of the other descriptors are stated "with or without aids"

I guess that I am asking what do I do - I cannot move anywhere near 20 metres without aids - but probably more than 50 metres with aids...

"probably be a good idea" hmmm, if that was me then i'd have gone somewhere else for further advice.

PIP is about what you can/can't do the "majority" of the time. So if you use an aid the majority of the time then this is what you should go on.

Don't forget If you can't do something safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly and in a resonable time then you're classed as not being able to do that activity.

More information here, which i'd advise you to have a read of.  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#mobility-activities

[Deleted User]

poppy12345 said:

Deleted_User said:

I am about to apply for a transfer from DLA (over 15 years claiming) to PIP - Since my mobility is now extremely poor and I am fed up with waiting

I have asked my local CAB for advice and they agree that it would probably be a good idea

Just one query - the rules appear very weird

In that if someone can move between 20 and 50 metres - they can be assessed "without aids" - but all of the other descriptors are stated "with or without aids"

I guess that I am asking what do I do - I cannot move anywhere near 20 metres without aids - but probably more than 50 metres with aids...

"probably be a good idea" hmmm, if that was me then i'd have gone somewhere else for further advice.

PIP is about what you can/can't do the "majority" of the time. So if you use an aid the majority of the time then this is what you should go on.

Don't forget If you can't do something safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly and in a resonable time then you're classed as not being able to do that activity.

More information here, which i'd advise you to have a read of.  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#mobility-activities

The "planning and followng jourmey" section - appears not to include any physical abillity - am I correct in this ?

ie) Even if someone is physically unable to move - they score 0 points - since they are being assessed on their ability to follow a route (mental/cognative ability) and not their ability to move ??

This does appear an odd question - I am aware - but the rules are unclear

https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/pdfs/CPIP_2377_15.doc appears to be useful for my case as well - what do you think ?

" 1. The tribunal clearly erred in law in a way not mentioned either by the First tier Tribunal judge when granting permission to appeal, nor by the Upper Tribunal judge giving case directions, nor in either of the submissions from the parties to the Upper Tribunal. The tribunal found, as fact, that the appellant:

“… could not reasonably manage to move 20 metres unaided within the meaning of Regulation 4.”

However, the tribunal went on to find that the appellant could reasonably move further using crutches but not “… over 200 metres safely, repeatedly and within a reasonable time period”; the tribunal then concluded that he satisfied activity 2(b) in Part 3 of Schedule 1 (“the mobility activities”) to the Social Security (Personal Independence Payment Regulations 2013) (“the regulations”).

2. But that a claimant can stand and move more than 50 metres when aided does not stop him from also qualifying under mobility activity 2(c) if he cannot move unaided more than 20 metres; such a claimant may satisfy both mobility activities 2(b) (giving 4 points) and 2(c) and is then entitled to the higher score of 8 points which is appropriate under the latter descriptor; (under regulation 7(1)(b) of the regulations, always provided the claimant satisfies the higher scoring descriptor on over 50% of the days in a required period); this would establish qualification to mobility component at the standard rate."

tacpot12

I'm not sure of this, but I think that the "Planning and following jourmey" can incorporate aspects physical mobility, e.g. if the prospect of undertaking any journey cause you overwhelming psychological distress because you know you will fall down and hurt yourself if you have to walk more than a few steps, or that you will get lost because you can't see very far, then this seems to indicate that you need an aid or someone with you.

poppy12345

If you have a physical condition then following and planning a journal doesn't apply to you. If a journey causes you overwhelming pyschological distress to the point where you can't go out the majority of the time then this is mental health and following and planning a journey will apply.

Having said that i think you're making this more complicated than it really is.

Spoonie_Turtle

Regarding activity 1, from the assessment guide:

Activity 11 – planning and following journeys

This activity considers a claimant’s ability to plan and follow the route of a journey. It is useful separately to consider:

• ability to plan the route of a journey in advance
• ability to leave the home and embark on a journey and
• ability to follow the intended route once they leave the home

This activity is designed for limitations on mobility deriving from mental health, cognitive and sensory impairments, whereas activity 12 is generally designed for limitations from physical problems. Cognitive impairment includes orientation (understanding of where, when and who the person is), attention, concentration and memory. Any issues with the ability to stand and then move are not applicable under activity 11, but under activity 12.

Regarding falls, consideration must be given to how the risk of falling manifests itself. Ordinarily the risk to a claimant’s safety arising from a physical inability to move safely would be applicable under activity 12. However, where the fall arises as a result of a sensory or cognitive impairment (for example, seizures associated with loss of consciousness) the risk of the fall to a claimant’s safety would be applicable under activity 11.

Regarding activity 2, it makes sense.  Descriptor c is fewer points because someone can do it unaided, descriptor d is more because they need aids.  As poppy said, go on what you can do reliably and repeatedly the majority of the time. A one-off ability does not count if you then can't repeat it (due to pain, fatigue, stiffness, whatever) when someone nondisabled would reasonably be expected to.  Also consider time taken - if you can e.g. shuffle 200m with a zimmer frame but it takes you a very long time, that also doesn't count.

(For walking speeds, there doesn't seem to be any guidance for PIP.  However apparently the figures they used to use for DLA were: 

As a guide the average person can walk at :

1.brisk pace - >90 metres per minute

2.normal pace - 61-90 metres per minute

3. slow pace - 40-60 metres per minute

4.very slow pace - <40 metres per minute

Unofficial source: 4th post on this page https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/forum/10-dla-esa-queries-results/104862-2nd-pip-assessment-mobility-downgraded-help?start=6#138600)

[Deleted User]

poppy12345 said:

If you have a physical condition then following and planning a journal doesn't apply to you. If a journey causes you overwhelming pyschological distress to the point where you can't go out the majority of the time then this is mental health and following and planning a journey will apply.

Having said that i think you're making this more complicated than it really is.

I am just trying to ensure that I benefit from this as much as possible - by checking that I have ALL the facts right

RobinHill

Deleted_User: I found myself in a similar position, I was awarded low care and high mobility 20+ years ago ... with advice from OT's etc I decided to jump rather than wait to be pushed. Need to move at some point so might as well do it in your own time rather than when invited and perhaps then time limited. Bar the 8 month wait to be assessed my experience of the PIP process was pretty good. I found that without supporting evidence then a claim was dismissed, however where it was supported eg. consultant report etc then the claim was accepted. I managed to score points on 8 out of the 12 descriptors. Overall the assessor was competent but they did get a few things wrong but the award was high enough for it not to be worth pursuing. Good luck with it as it is stressful.

[Deleted User]

2 more questions - I am confused as to how I am supposed to deal with the first phone call (ny speech is virtually non-existant - especially when stressed) haven't DWP even heard of the equalities act ?

Secondly - I am 58 years old and not in the best of health - I am wondering whether, if I don't get the ball rolling now - and leave it - will I reach retirement age and STILL be stuck on DLA - if I get a decent level of payment before retirement - does that remain for the rest of my life or am I still liable for reassessments (after 67) ?

I have waited 9 years already, since PIP was started !

Spoonie_Turtle

https://www.gov.uk/pip/how-to-claim

You can claim by post, although this delays the start of your claim (to presumably the date they receive the initial information form).

There is apparently a pilot to make some claims online.  You could request that in your letter.  Or, this page has a DWP e-mail address - again for a paper form, but quicker by post, and you could also request an online claim.  Can't hurt to ask!
https://www.pkc.gov.uk/article/13585/Personal-Independence-Payment-

poppy12345

The pilot for online claims is only being offered to a certain amount of people each month but i'm unsure of exactly how many people get the offer. I thought i heard a figure somewhere but i'm not 100% sure so won't state the figure.

Deleted_User said:

Secondly - I am 58 years old and not in the best of health - I am wondering whether, if I don't get the ball rolling now - and leave it - will I reach retirement age and STILL be stuck on DLA - if I get a decent level of payment before retirement - does that remain for the rest of my life or am I still liable for reassessments (after 67) ?

I have waited 9 years already, since PIP was started !

No one can answer that question. When PIP first started in 2013, no one expected people to still be waiting to be invited to apply 8 years later.

If you are receiving PIP when you reach state pension age then whether you'll receive the ongoing award (10 years) will depend on your conditions. Not everyone of state pension age receives the ongoing award.

With regards to starting the process now, do you have someone that can ring on your behalf, maybe a partner?