Refund?

ItsComingRome

Upsidedownandaround said:

ItsComingRome said:

Upsidedownandaround said:

ItsComingRome said:

Upsidedownandaround said:

ItsComingRome said:

Upsidedownandaround said:

It might depend on what kind of passport it is. 

If you must provide proof of vaccination then I can’t see how you wouldn’t  be entitled to a refund. 

If you also have the option of providing proof of a negative test or proof of vaccination then you may not given negative tests have been in use for a while.

I don't see what vaccination has to do with it.

If a country decided to require a yellow fever vaccination for entry after you booked your flight tickets, do you really think they'd be entitled to a refund?  What if it was a simple change of entry requirements, such as baring UK nationals? That's not the airline's problem, it's the customers. The seat on the flight is available, it's not their fault the customer can't or won't sit in it.

I don't see why a football ticket is any different in this regard.

Well for one thing the terms and conditions are completely different.

Flight tickets make it quite clear it is your responsibility to meet the entry requirements of the country you are entering.

I don’t believe I’ve seen anything similar on football season tickets requiring a person to be responsible for meeting newly imposed government requirements for entering large scale events.

Because they don't need to.  It's nothing to do with them.  The Government is imposing these rules on them, not the club.

So what? It’s governments that impose the rules on entry yet all airlines have it in their terms a person agrees to.

They have nothing to do with the passenger.  That's between the airline and the foreign government.

It doesn't matter that the Kenyan government has told BA you can't allow UK nationals on your planes into Kenya when the plane is sat at the gate in Heathrow.  The passenger is not breaking any laws by sitting in their seat and won't be (if they ever are) until that plane hits Kenyan airspace.  The same is likely true of the airline too.  So they don't have a legal excuse to prevent boarding.

Clearly, the airline needs terms to allow them to prevent boarding in the first place as they can't rely on the law.

This is not the same as the football club.  The OP will be breaking the law by entering the ground and the club will be breaking the law by allowing entry. 

Apples and oranges.

I know how airlines and government entry restrictions work.

However I don't find your argument that football season tickets are no different to airline tickets when there is a significant material difference in the terms of the contracts persuasive.

If anything the fact that you point out that the law will now be broken by the person entering the gound is suggestive of a frustrated contract which the person would be entitled to a refund on.

It has nothing to do with their contract, it has to do with the law.

The OP is not legally entitled to enter the ground.  The club isn't breaching their contract, they are not choosing to deny entry, they are being legally required to do so and the OP isn't legally allowed to enter the ground.  It is no different to hotels, airlines or anything else where the law stops people from accessing what they paid for.

The seat is available to use. The law says they can't enter the football grounds.  That's not the football clubs problem.

On a slight tangent, anyone who had a problem with the idea of vaccine passports who bought a season ticket this year needs their heads examined.  The idea has been being floated for months, certainly around the time season tickets were on sale and it's very clear they've always been a possibility regardless of the government message of the day.  Zero sympathy.

Upsidedownandaround

ItsComingRome said:

Upsidedownandaround said:

ItsComingRome said:

Upsidedownandaround said:

ItsComingRome said:

Upsidedownandaround said:

ItsComingRome said:

Upsidedownandaround said:

It might depend on what kind of passport it is. 

If you must provide proof of vaccination then I can’t see how you wouldn’t  be entitled to a refund. 

If you also have the option of providing proof of a negative test or proof of vaccination then you may not given negative tests have been in use for a while.

I don't see what vaccination has to do with it.

If a country decided to require a yellow fever vaccination for entry after you booked your flight tickets, do you really think they'd be entitled to a refund?  What if it was a simple change of entry requirements, such as baring UK nationals? That's not the airline's problem, it's the customers. The seat on the flight is available, it's not their fault the customer can't or won't sit in it.

I don't see why a football ticket is any different in this regard.

Well for one thing the terms and conditions are completely different.

Flight tickets make it quite clear it is your responsibility to meet the entry requirements of the country you are entering.

I don’t believe I’ve seen anything similar on football season tickets requiring a person to be responsible for meeting newly imposed government requirements for entering large scale events.

Because they don't need to.  It's nothing to do with them.  The Government is imposing these rules on them, not the club.

So what? It’s governments that impose the rules on entry yet all airlines have it in their terms a person agrees to.

They have nothing to do with the passenger.  That's between the airline and the foreign government.

It doesn't matter that the Kenyan government has told BA you can't allow UK nationals on your planes into Kenya when the plane is sat at the gate in Heathrow.  The passenger is not breaking any laws by sitting in their seat and won't be (if they ever are) until that plane hits Kenyan airspace.  The same is likely true of the airline too.  So they don't have a legal excuse to prevent boarding.

Clearly, the airline needs terms to allow them to prevent boarding in the first place as they can't rely on the law.

This is not the same as the football club.  The OP will be breaking the law by entering the ground and the club will be breaking the law by allowing entry. 

Apples and oranges.

I know how airlines and government entry restrictions work.

However I don't find your argument that football season tickets are no different to airline tickets when there is a significant material difference in the terms of the contracts persuasive.

If anything the fact that you point out that the law will now be broken by the person entering the gound is suggestive of a frustrated contract which the person would be entitled to a refund on.

It has nothing to do with their contract, it has to do with the law.

The OP is not legally entitled to enter the ground.  The club isn't breaching their contract, they are not choosing to deny entry, they are being legally required to do so and the OP isn't legally allowed to enter the ground.  It is no different to hotels, airlines or anything else where the law stops people from accessing what they paid for.

The seat is available to use. The law says they can't enter the football grounds.  That's not the football clubs problem.

On a slight tangent, anyone who had a problem with the idea of vaccine passports who bought a season ticket this year needs their heads examined.  The idea has been being floated for months, certainly around the time season tickets were on sale and it's very clear they've always been a possibility regardless of the government message of the day.  Zero sympathy.

Of course it is to do with their contract. You're obviously incapable of looking at this without conflating it with travel issues. It's nothing like someone having booked a hotel in Spain and can't get there or a country changing vaccine requirements for foreign citizens to gain entry

I'm not even saying they are entitled to a refund. I said I oculdn't see how they are not entitled to a refund. I can't say your travel examples and attempts to say it's the same as buying airline tickets are convincing me whatsoever.

On a slight tangent any club who didn't clarify refund rights if vaccine passports were introduced in their terms and conditions has been extremely lazy and I have no sympathy for them.

ItsComingRome

FWIW Man United season ticket terms and conditions do allow them to a) eject people for not following "instructions regarding health and safety such as those in respect of communicable diseases " and b) only refund if they can resell the ticket minus a whole host of deductions that are likely to leave you with nowt.  And only AFTER the end of the season.

So going back to the OP, cancelling the DD is likely to lead you to begin chased for the payment.  And I suspect, as I said, them deciding not to allow you to go into the grounds in future.

bantamsricky

Thanks for your input guys. I and a few others have contacted the clubs we support for clarity.

I do agree the clubs are within their right to stop those fans entering the ground in the future if they do ask for a refund however I do believe that clubs should upfront about what would happen if passports did come in and that's where I think they have done wrong because I guarantee the uptake at most clubs would have been significantly lower if they had clarified the situation and the clubs knew it.

sheramber

The clubs had no more and no less as much information as you about  vaccine passports 

. Why did you not ask what would happen before you bought the ticket?

bantamsricky

sheramber said:

The clubs had no more and no less as much information as you about  vaccine passports 

. Why did you not ask what would happen before you bought the ticket?

I did but the girls behind the kiosk and  no disrespect to them didn't have a clue and after having a ST for 40 years I presumed the club would make announcement but never did. I know we are in strange times but had I known you couldn't get a refund I wouldn't have bought this season.

ItsComingRome

bantamsricky said:

sheramber said:

The clubs had no more and no less as much information as you about  vaccine passports 

. Why did you not ask what would happen before you bought the ticket?

I did but the girls behind the kiosk and  no disrespect to them didn't have a clue and after having a ST for 40 years I presumed the club would make announcement but never did. I know we are in strange times but had I known you couldn't get a refund I wouldn't have bought this season.

But you still bought suspecting that this could be an issue and having no idea whether you could.

If I'm concerned I'm not going to get what I paid for, I want confirmation of what I'm going to get (or not) back before I hand over my money.

sheramber

Somebody employed to sell tickets would have no knowledge of any future plans.

You need to ask the management.

jon81uk

The NHS covid pass requires proof of vaccination or a negative lateral flow test. So if you prefer to stick things up your nose you can just test yourself and report it before each match anyway.
In fact to be safe it is best to do a lateral flow test before going to the match anyway even if vaccinated.

TBagpuss

Upsidedownandaround said:

It might depend on what kind of passport it is. 

If you must provide proof of vaccination then I can’t see how you wouldn’t  be entitled to a refund. 

If you also have the option of providing proof of a negative test or proof of vaccination then you may not given negative tests have been in use for a while.

I very much doubt that they would be entitled to a refund. I suspect that there are provisions in the contract allowing them to refuse entry if you don't comply with any rules for entry, so if the general terms for entry to the stadium change , you still have to comply with them. (I had a look at a could of clubs T&Cs for 2019, pre Covid, and they all say that season ticket holders have to comply with the general rules of entry and also make clear that refunds won't be given if you are denied entry for failing to comply with those rules. 


Of course, if OP says which club he has a season ticket for then it would be possible to look at the wording of that club's T&Cs to see what they say, but I would very surprised if they don't include similar provisions. (The ones I looked at seems to be identical so I  wonder whether there was a shared template 

The T&Cs I looked at for 202/21  all have specific covid provisions which say that season ticket holders must comply with general rules for entry and expressly state that this includes any covid requirements. 

The club is ready and able to perform their part of the contract, the seat is there, and available for use. The only situation  i can see where a refund would be appropriate would be if the ticket holder was unable to get a vaccination for medical reasons, where anti-discrimination considerations would come into the equation .

If they simply choose not to, that's a choice they are free to make but it doesn't frustrate the contract-it's something which the ticket holder has chosen to do (or not do) .