Ryanair bans passengers who got Covid Chargeback refunds

simoncorkswill1

Did they run all the flights , or did they run flights that had a certain load factor ? IE was the intention to keep the money paid on a profitable flight and therefore run it regardless of whether it was empty ? 

wolvoman

There's 2 parts to this.

Part 1: Small claims courts and chargebacks being used to get a refund on a non-refundable ticket for a trip which wasn't taken because of a disinclination to travel. That's what travel insurance and/or refundable tickets are for. As it happens some county court judgements and chargebacks have gone against the airlines on this.
(question here though - were Ryanair offering vouchers or alternate dates as an alternative to travel?)

Part 2: The behaviour of Ryanair in allowing bookings to be taken and a contract formed without any reference to an account being 'in arrears' from a previous chargeback, and then enforcing these 'arrears' much closer to the date of travel when other arrangements have been made. On this I have less sympathy with Ryanair, and I wonder if there's some legal avenue to persue them for consequential loss for breach of contract.

GrumpyOldMan2

wolvoman said:

There's 2 parts to this.

Part 1: Small claims courts and chargebacks being used to get a refund on a non-refundable ticket for a trip which wasn't taken because of a disinclination to travel. That's what travel insurance and/or refundable tickets are for. As it happens some county court judgements and chargebacks have gone against the airlines on this.
(question here though - were Ryanair offering vouchers or alternate dates as an alternative to travel?)

Part 2: The behaviour of Ryanair in allowing bookings to be taken and a contract formed without any reference to an account being 'in arrears' from a previous chargeback, and then enforcing these 'arrears' much closer to the date of travel when other arrangements have been made. On this I have less sympathy with Ryanair, and I wonder if there's some legal avenue to persue them for consequential loss for breach of contract.

or obtaining money by deception. I have just checked and as at 6/10/21 Ryanair still have £600m of UK taxpayer money, borrowed at a very low interest rate. Perhaps this should be considered by the CMA/CAA but I doubt these toothless 'dragons' have the cojones.

Upsidedownandaround

wolvoman said:

There's 2 parts to this.

Part 1: Small claims courts and chargebacks being used to get a refund on a non-refundable ticket for a trip which wasn't taken because of a disinclination to travel. That's what travel insurance and/or refundable tickets are for. As it happens some county court judgements and chargebacks have gone against the airlines on this.
(question here though - were Ryanair offering vouchers or alternate dates as an alternative to travel?)

Part 2: The behaviour of Ryanair in allowing bookings to be taken and a contract formed without any reference to an account being 'in arrears' from a previous chargeback, and then enforcing these 'arrears' much closer to the date of travel when other arrangements have been made. On this I have less sympathy with Ryanair, and I wonder if there's some legal avenue to persue them for consequential loss for breach of contract.

Regarding the second part I agree with you I don’t have much sympathy for Ryanair on they way they have acted.

I’ll add in a 3rd part though. Whether Ryanair were right or wrong regarding refunds these customers knew what Ryanair’s position was on refunds for flights that went ahead and they couldn’t fly on and they had already been in dispute with them about it. 

Yet once more whilst the pandemic continued and border restrictions were still changing on a daily basis they again booked flights with Ryanair in the full knowledge that there was still a significant risk that restrictions would change and if it did Ryanairs position was that they once again wouldn’t be entitled to a refund. 

They must have thought they were bullet proof to hand over more money and could just keep taking these risks in the knowledge that they could keep doing chargebacks and Ryanair wouldn’t do anything about it. 

I can’t say I have much sympathy with them with regards to their behaviour either. They had the chance to quit whilst they were ahead and go elsewhere but didn’t.

Thrugelmir

GrumpyOldMan2 said:

wolvoman said:

There's 2 parts to this.

Part 1: Small claims courts and chargebacks being used to get a refund on a non-refundable ticket for a trip which wasn't taken because of a disinclination to travel. That's what travel insurance and/or refundable tickets are for. As it happens some county court judgements and chargebacks have gone against the airlines on this.
(question here though - were Ryanair offering vouchers or alternate dates as an alternative to travel?)

Part 2: The behaviour of Ryanair in allowing bookings to be taken and a contract formed without any reference to an account being 'in arrears' from a previous chargeback, and then enforcing these 'arrears' much closer to the date of travel when other arrangements have been made. On this I have less sympathy with Ryanair, and I wonder if there's some legal avenue to persue them for consequential loss for breach of contract.

 I have just checked and as at 6/10/21 Ryanair still have £600m of UK taxpayer money, borrowed at a very low interest rate.

To repay the money Ryanair needs to make cash profits. So far not a good 2021 with sizable losses. The cost of Aviation fuel rising isn't going to help their cause either. 

Irv_the_Swerve

What people seem to forget is that Foreign Office advise about travelling abroad is not mandatory, it's just advice.
Your travel insurance may be invalidated if the advise is not followed but all of this does not become a legal ban preventing you travelling.In the end it's your choice.
So there is a certain logic to Ryanair saying that as the haven't cancelled the flights and you have decided not to travel why should they lose out.
Not sure why the banks went ahead and reimbursed the travellers when the legal position is so ambiguous.

EvanD

Couldn't you just set up a new Ryanair account, with a different email address, possibly a slightly different postal address (use your neighbour's address. When was the last time Ryanair sent you a letter by postal mail)?

jrawle

EvanD said:

Couldn't you just set up a new Ryanair account, with a different email address, possibly a slightly different postal address (use your neighbour's address. When was the last time Ryanair sent you a letter by postal mail)?

If you are desperate still to fly with them after the way they behaved, then yes, I thought about that too. You'd probably need to use a different payment card, too.

However, it doesn't help people who have already booked and were only told when checking in that they needed to repay the refunds.

Brie

The problem with Ryanair's practices in my opinion is that other airlines see what they are doing and getting away with and then follow suit. 

There was a time when airlines wouldn't think about charging for luggage unless it was something completely ridiculous.  That said a few decades back I did manage to board a flight with no extra charges despite the fact that my "luggage" included a double size futon wrapped around 2 pairs of skis and 2 deck chairs.  And that was in addition to the suitcases.

Now there are strict guidelines about the size of carry ons as well as severe limits on all luggage no matter what you pay for your seats.

GrumpyOldMan2

Thrugelmir said:

GrumpyOldMan2 said:

wolvoman said:

There's 2 parts to this.

Part 1: Small claims courts and chargebacks being used to get a refund on a non-refundable ticket for a trip which wasn't taken because of a disinclination to travel. That's what travel insurance and/or refundable tickets are for. As it happens some county court judgements and chargebacks have gone against the airlines on this.
(question here though - were Ryanair offering vouchers or alternate dates as an alternative to travel?)

Part 2: The behaviour of Ryanair in allowing bookings to be taken and a contract formed without any reference to an account being 'in arrears' from a previous chargeback, and then enforcing these 'arrears' much closer to the date of travel when other arrangements have been made. On this I have less sympathy with Ryanair, and I wonder if there's some legal avenue to persue them for consequential loss for breach of contract.

 I have just checked and as at 6/10/21 Ryanair still have £600m of UK taxpayer money, borrowed at a very low interest rate.

To repay the money Ryanair needs to make cash profits. So far not a good 2021 with sizable losses. The cost of Aviation fuel rising isn't going to help their cause either. 

As at Mar 21 they were sitting on 3,150,000,000 euros in cash. The £600m loan is due to be repaid Mar 2022. I belong to a group on Facebook 'Ryanair cancelled our flights' and there are still people fighting to get refunds for 2020 where the flight did not happen. Ryanair are, apparently, illegally 'borrowing' customer money to finance their business. They have sufficient funds to but 600 new aircraft:
 www .irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-ends-talks-with-boeing-over-max-10-order-1.4666094

Part 1 :Travel insurance WILL NOT pay out where there is disinclination to travel. The Ryanair Vouchers are a contentious issue, there are reports that Ryanair had two prices : the booking with a voucher price, and the cash booking price. No prizes for guessing which was more (and reportedly MUCH more) expensive. Also vouchers were reportedly only for the value of the flight not optional extras like priority boarding, baggage charges, prepurchased seats etc.

Some of the SCC and chargeback claims related to cancelled flights for which there a legal right for a cash refund under EU law.

Part 2. Some could consider this as tantamount to blackmail .... I wouldn't like to say ....

Part 3. Sort of agree but it people were being turned away from the airport by police so they were prevented from travelling. The bookings may have actually been made between lockdowns:

www  .bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56493002

www  .independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/covid-travel-law-borders-law-police-b1794268.html

Some travel companies, e.g. Sunshine Holidays, book people on flights as part of their 'package' holidays (quotes because they do not count as package holidays) and some consumers fail to recognise this. A lot of people struggled to get refunds in these cases.

I for one, however, will boycott Ryanair in future; I wish that more people would and then a more customer service oriented airline could take over their routes.

Finally I don't know if Thrugelmir had flights booked with Ryanair in 2020? I did and received an e-mail saying a refund would be made but then got sent vouchers and had to jump through hoops, resorting to e-mailing their Customer Services Director before getting the money back.

We need the government to clarify the legal position but the CMA and CAA, who are supposed to protect consumer/passenger interests between them, have apparently, not got the power and/or bottle to pursue this through the courts. Grant Shapps has been similarly lacking in leadership