How do you reckon we'll be heating our homes in years to come?

bris

Hydrogen will take over from full Gas boilers as the main stream alternative.

Worcester and Baxi are well on their way to developing them, Worcester I believe have a 100% Hydrogen boiler almost ready and there is also a way to use our existing boilers with a mix of both gas and hydrogen that might meet the omissions targets.

Heat source, ground source etc will be about but I believe the cost is prohibitive so the answer is hydrogen, a good clean energy source.

aoleks

shinytop said:

In answer to your question, I think a combination of (1) heat pumps and (2) H2 produced by renewable energy, stored and piped into homes. 

I don't think there would be so many objections to heat pumps if they were cheaper to run than gas CH.  The problem is, gas has been so cheap that the amount we all used wasn't a consideration for most people.  A bit like big cars in the USA than did 12mpg. Nobody cared because the gasoline they ran on was so cheap.  Like domestic gas at 2p/KwH. These days (for cars and central heating) are gone for good now.       

Heat pumps could work for most people but they are not the same, nor as good as, gas boilers.  Just like EVs aren't the same, nor as good as, ICEVs.

It was good while it lasted but we all need to move on now.  

Agree, but we need to move on to something that's at least as good. A heat pump, despite it's theoretical efficiency of 3-400%, is not capable of heating a home like a gas boiler does. A heat pump is not capable of meeting all the needs, like a gas boiler (you don't need a second boiler to power the first boiler, just in case). A heat pump can't provide energy at the price of a boiler, it takes many, many years to even recover your investment, if that's a thing.

FreeBear

TELLIT01 said: How we will heat is a very good question as from what I've read, the heat pump option is not viable for many people on cost alone.  Then there is the issue of where all the gubbins required goes.  Who has space for the pipework required for ground source?

I have space for a GSHP collector if it uses boreholes (slinkies are out of the question). However, getting a suitable drilling rig in is physically impossible unless I demolish the side extension. There is also a long term problem with the ground cooling as heat is sucked out - Anecdotal evidence suggests that efficiency drops off over a 25-30 year period. Although this can be offset a little by pumping heat back in to the ground during the summer months (a use for those PV panels ?).

Even if a suitably small drilling rig could be found, the cost of the groundworks is likely to be in the order of £30-40K.

rubble2

Couple of intersting you tube videos here on the subject of Heat pumps and heating in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhAKMAcmJFg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azb6LAspCM4&t=1772s

Section62

aoleks said:

A heat pump can't provide energy at the price of a boiler, it takes many, many years to even recover your investment, if that's a thing.

Because the volume production of gas boilers vs heat pumps, and the cost per kWh of gas vs electricity, skews the economics in favour of gas boilers.

Make lots of heat pumps and very few gas boilers, and the economics of purchase quickly change.

Level the cost of gas and electricity (or even surcharge the cost of gas) and the running cost equation quickly changes.


Neither though necessarily means that the cost of heating your home will remain the same. Which I think is the point shinytop was making at the end of their post.

Section62

bris said:

Heat source, ground source etc will be about but I believe the cost is prohibitive so the answer is hydrogen, a good clean energy source.

The hydrogen needs to be made and transported though, and I think the economics of that are going to rule out pure H2 supplies using the existing infrastructure.  Also, some applications are not suited to 100% H2.  Unless they are phased out as well, separate infrastructure will be needed to supply the different energy gases.

I think it more likely that a %age of H2 will be routinely added to natural gas in the same way bioethanol is now added to petrol.

H2 production and distribution will involve electricity consumption we cannot spare in the short to medium term, so I think the niche for H2 will be for the conversion of surplus electricity at times of high generation/low demand into a form of energy storage which is relatively easy to manage.  This can then be released into the natural gas supply on a variable basis to help match supply and demand.

Ganga

There was a local company here in the NE of England that was building wood framed houses ,they were manufactured in Germany and came pre insulated ,they had to be assembled correctly and i was told by the owner that they were so well insulated that they did not need heating but radiators etc were fitted as customers expected them in their new house plus they needed hot water for washing , bathing etc.

shinytop

aoleks said:

shinytop said:

In answer to your question, I think a combination of (1) heat pumps and (2) H2 produced by renewable energy, stored and piped into homes. 

I don't think there would be so many objections to heat pumps if they were cheaper to run than gas CH.  The problem is, gas has been so cheap that the amount we all used wasn't a consideration for most people.  A bit like big cars in the USA than did 12mpg. Nobody cared because the gasoline they ran on was so cheap.  Like domestic gas at 2p/KwH. These days (for cars and central heating) are gone for good now.       

Heat pumps could work for most people but they are not the same, nor as good as, gas boilers.  Just like EVs aren't the same, nor as good as, ICEVs.

It was good while it lasted but we all need to move on now.  

Agree, but we need to move on to something that's at least as good. A heat pump, despite it's theoretical efficiency of 3-400%, is not capable of heating a home like a gas boiler does. A heat pump is not capable of meeting all the needs, like a gas boiler (you don't need a second boiler to power the first boiler, just in case). A heat pump can't provide energy at the price of a boiler, it takes many, many years to even recover your investment, if that's a thing.

It depends how you define 'good'.  If you mean 'cheap' then you are right, we are probably not going to have anything that's as cheap.  And I agree with you it will rarely work as an investment (I'm probably an exception to that).  Apart from anything, HPs are far too expensive at the moment.

I also agree a HP is not capable of heating a home like a gas boiler does because the heating system runs at a lower temperature and takes a bit longer to heat up.  But with the right radiators (and yes, you might need different ones) it will keep your house just as warm. It will be less efficient in winter but overall it will use less energy and emit/contribute to less CO2 than a gas boiler. 

If your house is poorly insulated, draughty or heated up like a sauna a HP will use a lot more energy.  But so will a house with gas CH; it's just that nobody noticed before because gas was so cheap. They might now though. 

I am not a HP fanatic and if I could have mains gas, I probably would.  But there is a lot of misinformation around about HPs and from what I can see/have experienced, they are a viable alternative to oil/gas, for some houses.  

  



      

coffeehound

Section62 said:

Because the volume production of gas boilers vs heat pumps, and the cost per kWh of gas vs electricity, skews the economics in favour of gas boilers.

Make lots of heat pumps and very few gas boilers, and the economics of purchase quickly change.

Something strange about the current national debate is that people make out heatpumps are some new exotic technology fresh from the pages of science fiction.  The fact is, heatpumps have been around for donkey's even in Britain.  Recognise these ceiling units that we've had in offices and shops for decades?



Heatpumps.

One trick that politicians might have missed is negotiating to have factories set up in the UK by the Japanese manufacturers in exchange for the huge orders they will recieve from us in the coming years.  That would reduce their carbon footprint while giving some of the profits back to UK workers and suppliers.

BikingBud

Quite interesting that committing funds to enable a more efficient heating system is seen as something that cannot be considered as it takes so long to recover the costs! Yet people often spend 20/30/40k on bathroom and kitchen refurbishments just to put their own mark on a previously adequate house.

Build effective eco homes and reduce the profits that are being made by builders of chuck em up estates. Plan and use CHP in modern estates, provide hot water and heating via the most effective route, possibly via H2 production during the day for each estate and use boilers in the overcast periods, This will reduce the overheads and problems of building and maintaining many domestic boilers.

If all people invested in bringing houses up to more modern standards and played the game then we would all get the benefit, sooner rather than later.