I'm taking Ryanair through the small claims court

[Deleted User]

The CMA says you should get a refund. On that basis many people asked for a chargeback, and I imagine banks looked at it as well before granting them.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cma-to-investigate-concerns-about-cancellation-policies-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic/the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds

In some circumstances, due to lockdown laws, a contract cannot go ahead as agreed or at all, and is therefore ‘frustrated’. A contract will be frustrated as a matter of law if, due to no fault of the parties, something happens after the contract was entered into which means it can no longer be performed at all or performance would be radically different to what was agreed.
As a result, the contract comes to an end and, where consumers have paid money in advance for services or goods that they have yet to receive, they will generally be entitled to obtain a refund.

In particular, for most consumer contracts, the CMA would expect a consumer to be offered a full refund where:

• a business has cancelled a contract without providing any of the promised goods or services

• no goods or services are provided by a business because this is prevented by the lockdown laws

• a consumer is prevented from receiving any goods or services, because, for example, lockdown laws in the UK or abroad have made it illegal to receive or use the goods or services

That's the current government advice. Seems pretty clear cut to me, even if Ryanair decides to fly the consumer should get a refund if travel restrictions prevent them from going.

CKhalvashi

[Deleted User] said:

The CMA says you should get a refund. On that basis many people asked for a chargeback, and I imagine banks looked at it as well before granting them.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cma-to-investigate-concerns-about-cancellation-policies-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic/the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds

In some circumstances, due to lockdown laws, a contract cannot go ahead as agreed or at all, and is therefore ‘frustrated’. A contract will be frustrated as a matter of law if, due to no fault of the parties, something happens after the contract was entered into which means it can no longer be performed at all or performance would be radically different to what was agreed.
As a result, the contract comes to an end and, where consumers have paid money in advance for services or goods that they have yet to receive, they will generally be entitled to obtain a refund.

In particular, for most consumer contracts, the CMA would expect a consumer to be offered a full refund where:

• a business has cancelled a contract without providing any of the promised goods or services

• no goods or services are provided by a business because this is prevented by the lockdown laws

• a consumer is prevented from receiving any goods or services, because, for example, lockdown laws in the UK or abroad have made it illegal to receive or use the goods or services

That's the current government advice. Seems pretty clear cut to me, even if Ryanair decides to fly the consumer should get a refund if travel restrictions prevent them from going.

So why are the government unwilling to test this in court? If they are certain they would not have withdrawn the case.

Ryanair are under no obligation to follow advice that is not legally binding from a non-EU state and are choosing to follow their contract, which has not been successfully been disputed in court.

Bank of Ireland have admitted they wrongly paid a chargeback to one of their customers, and as Ryanair contracts (for FR coded flights) have conditions consistent with Irish law, they should be in the best position to declare this.

The CMA guidance therefore is worthless unless a judge overturns it. The government is uncertain they will and have therefore dropped the case. This therefore will be up to a consumer to do, however on the basis of what we saw so far, this is unlikely to happen.

eskbanker

[Deleted User] said:

That's the current government advice. Seems pretty clear cut to me, even if Ryanair decides to fly the consumer should get a refund if travel restrictions prevent them from going.

It's not advice as such, but an opinion, which, as they concede, is largely irrelevant when it's courts of law that would actually decide, so it's far from clear cut in legal terms (and hence the recent collapse of their investigation, as above):

This statement should not be regarded as a substitute for, or a definitive interpretation of, the law. Rather it sets out the CMA’s views as to how the law operates, to help consumers understand their rights and to help businesses treat their customers fairly. Ultimately only a court can decide how the law applies in each circumstance.

They also accept that it was mainly written in the context of the original legally-binding lockdown laws in the UK and that the situation becomes (even) less clear cut when it came to the more nuanced foreign travel restriction scenarios that came later:

The legal position was more straightforward under the original lockdown laws, imposed at the start of the pandemic, because the broad and strict nature of the legal restrictions they imposed meant many contracts could not go ahead as planned.

However, as lockdown laws and the nature of the legal restrictions they impose change over time, the consequences for individual contracts may become less clear-cut and more fact-specific. Ultimately only a court can decide how the law applies, and in many cases this will be the first time the issues have been considered in the context of a pandemic like this.

It will be interesting to see what happens if/when cases start making it through to the courts, but until then, it would seem unlikely that there's much to rely on in the views expressed in the CMA's August 2020 document, when they were unable to make them stick themselves (unlike, say, their actions against package holiday operators, where the law is clear cut).

michael1234

[Deleted User] said:

The CMA says you should get a refund. On that basis many people asked for a chargeback, and I imagine banks looked at it as well before granting them.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cma-to-investigate-concerns-about-cancellation-policies-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic/the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds

In some circumstances, due to lockdown laws, a contract cannot go ahead as agreed or at all, and is therefore ‘frustrated’. A contract will be frustrated as a matter of law if, due to no fault of the parties, something happens after the contract was entered into which means it can no longer be performed at all or performance would be radically different to what was agreed.
As a result, the contract comes to an end and, where consumers have paid money in advance for services or goods that they have yet to receive, they will generally be entitled to obtain a refund.

In particular, for most consumer contracts, the CMA would expect a consumer to be offered a full refund where:

• a business has cancelled a contract without providing any of the promised goods or services

• no goods or services are provided by a business because this is prevented by the lockdown laws

• a consumer is prevented from receiving any goods or services, because, for example, lockdown laws in the UK or abroad have made it illegal to receive or use the goods or services

That's the current government advice. Seems pretty clear cut to me, even if Ryanair decides to fly the consumer should get a refund if travel restrictions prevent them from going.

Yes it does seem likely the OP will win his case but even if there are some doubts I find it incredible that some post as though they are experts in the matter and are certain he will lose.

eskbanker

michael1234 said:

Yes it does seem likely the OP will win his case but even if there are some doubts I find it incredible that some post as though they are experts in the matter and are certain he will lose.

I don't see anyone saying that OP is certain to lose, but my view remains that 'because the CMA said so' is a weak argument in law and @CKhalvashi makes a valid point that opinions expressed by the UK government are unlikely to affect an Irish airline.  As discussed earlier, it seems self-evident that Ryanair will defend the case vigorously because it's in their wider interests to do so, but of course the truth is that nobody knows how a court will view this, so it's no more valid for you to opine that it's likely that OP will win than it is for others to express the opposite opinion (while assembling a more cogent argument than indignant bluster....)

ItsComingRome

michael1234 said:

[Deleted User] said:

The CMA says you should get a refund. On that basis many people asked for a chargeback, and I imagine banks looked at it as well before granting them.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cma-to-investigate-concerns-about-cancellation-policies-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic/the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds

In some circumstances, due to lockdown laws, a contract cannot go ahead as agreed or at all, and is therefore ‘frustrated’. A contract will be frustrated as a matter of law if, due to no fault of the parties, something happens after the contract was entered into which means it can no longer be performed at all or performance would be radically different to what was agreed.
As a result, the contract comes to an end and, where consumers have paid money in advance for services or goods that they have yet to receive, they will generally be entitled to obtain a refund.

In particular, for most consumer contracts, the CMA would expect a consumer to be offered a full refund where:

• a business has cancelled a contract without providing any of the promised goods or services

• no goods or services are provided by a business because this is prevented by the lockdown laws

• a consumer is prevented from receiving any goods or services, because, for example, lockdown laws in the UK or abroad have made it illegal to receive or use the goods or services

That's the current government advice. Seems pretty clear cut to me, even if Ryanair decides to fly the consumer should get a refund if travel restrictions prevent them from going.

Yes it does seem likely the OP will win his case but even if there are some doubts I find it incredible that some post as though they are experts in the matter and are certain he will lose.

I find it incredible that some post as they are experts on the matter and think he will win.

Not naming anyone of course as that's the way to troll without the mods banning you for it.

CKhalvashi

michael1234 said:

[Deleted User] said:

The CMA says you should get a refund. On that basis many people asked for a chargeback, and I imagine banks looked at it as well before granting them.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cma-to-investigate-concerns-about-cancellation-policies-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic/the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds

In some circumstances, due to lockdown laws, a contract cannot go ahead as agreed or at all, and is therefore ‘frustrated’. A contract will be frustrated as a matter of law if, due to no fault of the parties, something happens after the contract was entered into which means it can no longer be performed at all or performance would be radically different to what was agreed.
As a result, the contract comes to an end and, where consumers have paid money in advance for services or goods that they have yet to receive, they will generally be entitled to obtain a refund.

In particular, for most consumer contracts, the CMA would expect a consumer to be offered a full refund where:

• a business has cancelled a contract without providing any of the promised goods or services

• no goods or services are provided by a business because this is prevented by the lockdown laws

• a consumer is prevented from receiving any goods or services, because, for example, lockdown laws in the UK or abroad have made it illegal to receive or use the goods or services

That's the current government advice. Seems pretty clear cut to me, even if Ryanair decides to fly the consumer should get a refund if travel restrictions prevent them from going.

Yes it does seem likely the OP will win his case but even if there are some doubts I find it incredible that some post as though they are experts in the matter and are certain he will lose.

The reason I'm doubting this is due to entry restrictions in many cases.

It has been continually held that it is up to the ticket holder to meet entry requirements of the destination country,  however I appreciate not necessarily in these specific circumstances. There is case law backing this and its up to the holder to book with an airline that will refund (UIA is a good example of this) in the event of visa refusal. UIA are a good example as they are often reasonably priced but not the cheapest.

I believe even in this case their wording is more specifically to visa refusal, not entry refusal due to the requirements of another country, and therefore in their case you would be liable to their terms, freely available in their website.

Until someone can point to legislation, I will continue to advise how I have for the last 18 months as this advice is correct.

[Deleted User]

CKhalvashi said:

[Deleted User] said:

The CMA says you should get a refund. On that basis many people asked for a chargeback, and I imagine banks looked at it as well before granting them.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cma-to-investigate-concerns-about-cancellation-policies-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic/the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds

In some circumstances, due to lockdown laws, a contract cannot go ahead as agreed or at all, and is therefore ‘frustrated’. A contract will be frustrated as a matter of law if, due to no fault of the parties, something happens after the contract was entered into which means it can no longer be performed at all or performance would be radically different to what was agreed.
As a result, the contract comes to an end and, where consumers have paid money in advance for services or goods that they have yet to receive, they will generally be entitled to obtain a refund.

In particular, for most consumer contracts, the CMA would expect a consumer to be offered a full refund where:

• a business has cancelled a contract without providing any of the promised goods or services

• no goods or services are provided by a business because this is prevented by the lockdown laws

• a consumer is prevented from receiving any goods or services, because, for example, lockdown laws in the UK or abroad have made it illegal to receive or use the goods or services

That's the current government advice. Seems pretty clear cut to me, even if Ryanair decides to fly the consumer should get a refund if travel restrictions prevent them from going.

So why are the government unwilling to test this in court? If they are certain they would not have withdrawn the case.

Ryanair are under no obligation to follow advice that is not legally binding from a non-EU state and are choosing to follow their contract, which has not been successfully been disputed in court.

Bank of Ireland have admitted they wrongly paid a chargeback to one of their customers, and as Ryanair contracts (for FR coded flights) have conditions consistent with Irish law, they should be in the best position to declare this.

The CMA guidance therefore is worthless unless a judge overturns it. The government is uncertain they will and have therefore dropped the case. This therefore will be up to a consumer to do, however on the basis of what we saw so far, this is unlikely to happen.

I don't know, you should ask them.

The point is, people here calling it fraud and saying that the chargebacks should never have been allowed and that people should have know it was wrong, well there it is in black and white.

Unwinding it would be difficult now, especially as many people would want to make claims on travel insurance instead. There are now knock-on effects too, such as people not being allowed to board new flights.

I think the OP has a good chance of winning. They followed the government advice at the time. Given that Ryanair is a big company the law tends to put the burden on them to work with the government to sort these things out, not the consumer.

CKhalvashi

[Deleted User] said:

CKhalvashi said:

[Deleted User] said:

The CMA says you should get a refund. On that basis many people asked for a chargeback, and I imagine banks looked at it as well before granting them.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cma-to-investigate-concerns-about-cancellation-policies-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic/the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds

In some circumstances, due to lockdown laws, a contract cannot go ahead as agreed or at all, and is therefore ‘frustrated’. A contract will be frustrated as a matter of law if, due to no fault of the parties, something happens after the contract was entered into which means it can no longer be performed at all or performance would be radically different to what was agreed.
As a result, the contract comes to an end and, where consumers have paid money in advance for services or goods that they have yet to receive, they will generally be entitled to obtain a refund.

In particular, for most consumer contracts, the CMA would expect a consumer to be offered a full refund where:

• a business has cancelled a contract without providing any of the promised goods or services

• no goods or services are provided by a business because this is prevented by the lockdown laws

• a consumer is prevented from receiving any goods or services, because, for example, lockdown laws in the UK or abroad have made it illegal to receive or use the goods or services

That's the current government advice. Seems pretty clear cut to me, even if Ryanair decides to fly the consumer should get a refund if travel restrictions prevent them from going.

So why are the government unwilling to test this in court? If they are certain they would not have withdrawn the case.

Ryanair are under no obligation to follow advice that is not legally binding from a non-EU state and are choosing to follow their contract, which has not been successfully been disputed in court.

Bank of Ireland have admitted they wrongly paid a chargeback to one of their customers, and as Ryanair contracts (for FR coded flights) have conditions consistent with Irish law, they should be in the best position to declare this.

The CMA guidance therefore is worthless unless a judge overturns it. The government is uncertain they will and have therefore dropped the case. This therefore will be up to a consumer to do, however on the basis of what we saw so far, this is unlikely to happen.

I don't know, you should ask them.

The point is, people here calling it fraud and saying that the chargebacks should never have been allowed and that people should have know it was wrong, well there it is in black and white.

Unwinding it would be difficult now, especially as many people would want to make claims on travel insurance instead. There are now knock-on effects too, such as people not being allowed to board new flights.

I think the OP has a good chance of winning. They followed the government advice at the time. Given that Ryanair is a big company the law tends to put the burden on them to work with the government to sort these things out, not the consumer.

I'll go with that as a reasoned argument in the opposite direction to my views and thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I think the issue with it will be legislation for the OP, but it does represent a reasoned counterbalance that the court can take into account, I simply don't feel that based on law it will work.

Once again I wish the OP luck in their case, as either way it will bring a huge amount of certainty to many in this particular (and very new) angle on the legislation as it stands.

[Deleted User]

Possibly relevant for the OP: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/oct/28/ryanair-to-shakeup-refunds-policy-after-pandemic-criticism