Administration Fees for getting a refund from a cancelled flight from an agent?

CKhalvashi

MercilessKiller said:

Butts said:

bagand96 said:

Butts said:

I had a chargeback against Brtitish Airways booked through Last Minute.com.

The full amount was returned to my card despite LM.Coms notoriety for "add ons" 

They tried to challenge it but the evidence they provided was insufficient for Capital One to be swayed.

When promoting the right of OTA's to claim fees for their services it must be balanced by the manner in which some of them have flouted the law and treated customers appallingly trying to evade their Legal responsibilities.

Do they really deserve a fee in these circumstances ?

I'm not sure anyone is promoting the right for OTA's to charge fees as such.  Just pointing out that a contract was entered into and and the terms were agreed to.

We have no evidence that the agent in this instance has treated the OP appallingly or tried to evade their legal responsibilities.

I notice the OP booked in July with a Budget Airline using a third party, one does wonder why and perhaps on reflection caveat emptor is applicable in this case.

There was plenty of evidence out there regarding My Trip and their fellow OTA's performance during the pandemic.

Just to answer this point:
1) It was cheaper (marginally but at the time I had absolutely 0 idea that booking via an agent would provide pain but lesson learnt here! Re the evidence on MyTrip, I hadn't seen this annoyingly)
2) There were options available via MyTrip that weren't available direct. With the Wizzair site for this particular flight, some of the addson were only applicable to all people on the flight (including 4 year old son) where'as with agent, you could choose for specific people (i.e luggage)

Now, the "on reflection" point is valid - knowing what I now know, that an agent can charge a fee even when the flight doesn't happen, I would have found an alternative option for sure. I'd argue it's not actually clear re the charges when the airline cancels the flight - In fact, there's nothing in the T&C's itself to say that, but only in the appendix which is labelled as the fee guide, not the rules on when fee's are applied. The wording in the T&C's seem to reflect that the fees are charged if you want to make a change or cancel which is totally fair and acceptable. 

Going back to this specific example, WizzAir agreed with me to refund the agents card on my behalf without the agent having to speak to them at all. This is important because MyTrip's argument is that the cost relates to chasing the airline for the money for a cancelled flight (also understandable) - Thus when I've found a solution which requires ZERO comms between MyTrip and Wizzair, now that argument is invalid. 

Either way, I've submitted the chargeback claim and Amex have credited my account whilst the dispute gets investigated (November 23rd is the ETA on it).. I'll report back either way.

With regards to entering into a contract - There is no contract here as the service purchased does not exist and is not available. Thus contract is surely void. Unless it was me choosing to cancel of course. My question here relates to the law specifically and if I've paid for a service not received (in this case a flight), then the consumer most likely shouldn't be liable for costs and if anything, MyTrip's argument of being out of pocket is surely something they should then be taking up with WizzAir due to the man power from MyTrip's side related to offering/advertising the flight being wasted due to the flight then being cancelled. 

Regular Wizz flyer here. The points are highlighted in bold and are in order from top to bottom.

For the first point, this is not true. I've had no problems with a booking for next week purchasing 2 tickets and buying the additional extras the other passenger requires. You can unselect the 'same for all passengers' option both before and after purchase, as I have just checked using the official app on my phone for both an existing booking and a dummy new one.

For the second point, the agent as their customer will have had to fill out a form to request a refund. There will be a staff cost to this and it will require communication between the agent as their customer and Wizz. You are not the customer of the airline and therefore have no reason to contact the airline.

For the third point you have entered into a contract. You have paid MyTrip to book flights for you and agreed to the terms of your contract with MyTrip. If you book with the airline, you have the right to a full refund from the airline, this is legally protected, but you chose not to. If you'd bothered to check Wizz's social media, it's littered with posts about only booking direct. Wizz therefore haven't caused any work for MyTrip, as you had the option of booking direct. You chose not to do this and therefore any costs are on you.

If American Express do successfully reclaim the funds from you, you will therefore have been incorrectly refunded.

Before a certain poster claims I'm defending agents doing this, I'm not. I'm simply highlighting current practice to you, which to the best of my knowledge hasn't been successfully challenged in court and therefore under my interpretation of the legislation is completely legal.

MercilessKiller

CKhalvashi said:

MercilessKiller said:

Deleted_User said:

It's correct that they charge you the fee, as long as it's outlined in their terms, as they have carried out the work in buying the tickets for you and now refunding. So if you're smelling fish, it must be coming from somewhere else.

If you had booked directly, you would have received a full refund.

Maybe I'm being silly but reading their terms & conditions, I'm not requesting a change here. The cancellation has happened, WizzAir are processing the refund without me requesting it from MyTrip -- My Trip are refusing to pass on the refund to me unless I pay them this administration fee. From WizzAir's point of view, they said they'd never heard of this and it shouldn't happen..

But you didn't book with Wizz and aren't their customer, you booked with MyTrip and MyTrip are their customer.

If you'd booked with Wizz directly, you'd have had the option of 120% credit, refund or re-booking without paying a third party for the privilege. You gave up many legal rights when not booking with the airline and should only do this in future when not booking a package.

From experience dealing with Wizz cancellations last summer and their changing of the Lviv route in January from twice weekly to once weekly (travelling for work) and changing the dates completely, they're a good airline if you can deal with them directly.

Lesson learnt on that for sure!

MercilessKiller

CKhalvashi said:

MercilessKiller said:

Butts said:

bagand96 said:

Butts said:

I had a chargeback against Brtitish Airways booked through Last Minute.com.

The full amount was returned to my card despite LM.Coms notoriety for "add ons" 

They tried to challenge it but the evidence they provided was insufficient for Capital One to be swayed.

When promoting the right of OTA's to claim fees for their services it must be balanced by the manner in which some of them have flouted the law and treated customers appallingly trying to evade their Legal responsibilities.

Do they really deserve a fee in these circumstances ?

I'm not sure anyone is promoting the right for OTA's to charge fees as such.  Just pointing out that a contract was entered into and and the terms were agreed to.

We have no evidence that the agent in this instance has treated the OP appallingly or tried to evade their legal responsibilities.

I notice the OP booked in July with a Budget Airline using a third party, one does wonder why and perhaps on reflection caveat emptor is applicable in this case.

There was plenty of evidence out there regarding My Trip and their fellow OTA's performance during the pandemic.

Just to answer this point:
1) It was cheaper (marginally but at the time I had absolutely 0 idea that booking via an agent would provide pain but lesson learnt here! Re the evidence on MyTrip, I hadn't seen this annoyingly)
2) There were options available via MyTrip that weren't available direct. With the Wizzair site for this particular flight, some of the addson were only applicable to all people on the flight (including 4 year old son) where'as with agent, you could choose for specific people (i.e luggage)

Now, the "on reflection" point is valid - knowing what I now know, that an agent can charge a fee even when the flight doesn't happen, I would have found an alternative option for sure. I'd argue it's not actually clear re the charges when the airline cancels the flight - In fact, there's nothing in the T&C's itself to say that, but only in the appendix which is labelled as the fee guide, not the rules on when fee's are applied. The wording in the T&C's seem to reflect that the fees are charged if you want to make a change or cancel which is totally fair and acceptable. 

Going back to this specific example, WizzAir agreed with me to refund the agents card on my behalf without the agent having to speak to them at all. This is important because MyTrip's argument is that the cost relates to chasing the airline for the money for a cancelled flight (also understandable) - Thus when I've found a solution which requires ZERO comms between MyTrip and Wizzair, now that argument is invalid. 

Either way, I've submitted the chargeback claim and Amex have credited my account whilst the dispute gets investigated (November 23rd is the ETA on it).. I'll report back either way.

With regards to entering into a contract - There is no contract here as the service purchased does not exist and is not available. Thus contract is surely void. Unless it was me choosing to cancel of course. My question here relates to the law specifically and if I've paid for a service not received (in this case a flight), then the consumer most likely shouldn't be liable for costs and if anything, MyTrip's argument of being out of pocket is surely something they should then be taking up with WizzAir due to the man power from MyTrip's side related to offering/advertising the flight being wasted due to the flight then being cancelled. 

Regular Wizz flyer here. The points are highlighted in bold and are in order from top to bottom.

For the first point, this is not true. I've had no problems with a booking for next week purchasing 2 tickets and buying the additional extras the other passenger requires. You can unselect the 'same for all passengers' option both before and after purchase, as I have just checked using the official app on my phone for both an existing booking and a dummy new one.

For the second point, the agent as their customer will have had to fill out a form to request a refund. There will be a staff cost to this and it will require communication between the agent as their customer and Wizz. You are not the customer of the airline and therefore have no reason to contact the airline.

For the third point you have entered into a contract. You have paid MyTrip to book flights for you and agreed to the terms of your contract with MyTrip. If you book with the airline, you have the right to a full refund from the airline, this is legally protected, but you chose not to. If you'd bothered to check Wizz's social media, it's littered with posts about only booking direct. Wizz therefore haven't caused any work for MyTrip, as you had the option of booking direct. You chose not to do this and therefore any costs are on you.

If American Express do successfully reclaim the funds from you, you will therefore have been incorrectly refunded.

Before a certain poster claims I'm defending agents doing this, I'm not. I'm simply highlighting current practice to you, which to the best of my knowledge hasn't been successfully challenged in court and therefore under my interpretation of the legislation is completely legal.

So here's the key part that I believe you've missed with regards to the second point and the agent having to fill out a form to request a refund. Indeed, this can be bypassed. A refund can be triggered directly from myself with WizzAir bypassing the need for the agent to do anything administratively to contact WizzAir for said refund. In fact, there's a advice online suggesting this exact approach for this exact reason. 

Thus now, let's say the administrative charge as part of the T&C's is to cover the cost of the agent contacting MyTrip, and I have removed that requirement by doing the administrative work myself (specifically the part of contacting WizzAir), then that means I am no longer requesting MyTrip to request a refund on my behalf as the refund has already been generated.

Lets put it another way:
Scenario 1: I do nothing (don't contact wizzair or mytrip). In this case, no refund is going to happen.
Scenario 2: I contact MyTrip to request the refund. MyTrip then use the administrative fee to fill in the form with WizzAir, get the money back and then send it to me. Administrative fee makes sense
Scenario 3: I contact WizzAir and (apparently there's a legal right to do this), request the refund to be processed back to the original payer (the flight contract is with me, not MyTrip, but the payment method can't be changed). WizzAir process this refund and send my money back to MyTrip.

Thus now in the situation of Scenario 3, MyTrip have my money right? They have 100% of what I paid. It's not with an airline (no contract). Thus what MyTrip are saying is I have to pay a fee for them to send me back the money in their account. 

THAT is the bit which I believe breaks certain consumer protection rights under Section 75 - Either way, that's the bit I'm challenging. So we'll see..

CKhalvashi

If the contract is structured in the way that they're your agent and you are the client directly (which I can't confirm in this case, but this arrangement is rare), then that may be true. I've only ever booked in the app or on the website, not through a third party.

I don't think (and need to go out to meet a client in a minute, but will check later, if I haven't by this evening please PM me) that there is a legal right to be able to contact Wizz (unless you are the direct customer contractually, meaning in practical terms that MyTrip have booked the flights using your e-mail address) but their card. You'd have had access to the 120% credit directly in this case to use on the booking of your choice, which it doesn't sound like you've had, so this leads me to believe it's not your Wizz account that's been used. You can check this by tapping the 3 lines at the top of the app, scrolling down to ;your profile' at the bottom and then checking the 'Wizz Account' page, which on my phone is 2nd from the top on the right.

As an example of how I've seen low cost bookings work in practice through an agent, my mother booked a package (not flight only) to go to Budapest with a friend pre-COVID, I can't remember the exact circumstances, but I did have to call the agent to get the e-mail address for check-in on their website so she could get the boarding passes for the Ryanair app. Wizz operate a different system with different permissions, but I'd argue the e-mail address the airline have is the most important part here.

Under scenario 3, it wouldn't quite be 100%, there would be some banking charges (up to £4 for 4 transactions at the higher end, potentially plus card processing charges at 2-3%) and some staff time, office overheads etc, but that in court ultimately would come down to whether a court deems the fee to be fair in your case.

As a personal opinion, on a £2000 return Business Class to Sydney, it quite possibly would be, on a £36 return Wizz flight for 2 people (which I have booked for next week) possibly not. This is not necessarily how a court would view this.

As presumably you've paid MyTrip and not Wizz, Section 75 won't be relevant, but as above, other consumer rights legislation may be.

MercilessKiller

CKhalvashi said:

If the contract is structured in the way that they're your agent and you are the client directly (which I can't confirm in this case, but this arrangement is rare), then that may be true. I've only ever booked in the app or on the website, not through a third party.

I don't think (and need to go out to meet a client in a minute, but will check later, if I haven't by this evening please PM me) that there is a legal right to be able to contact Wizz (unless you are the direct customer contractually, meaning in practical terms that MyTrip have booked the flights using your e-mail address) but their card. You'd have had access to the 120% credit directly in this case to use on the booking of your choice, which it doesn't sound like you've had, so this leads me to believe it's not your Wizz account that's been used. You can check this by tapping the 3 lines at the top of the app, scrolling down to ;your profile' at the bottom and then checking the 'Wizz Account' page, which on my phone is 2nd from the top on the right.

As an example of how I've seen low cost bookings work in practice through an agent, my mother booked a package (not flight only) to go to Budapest with a friend pre-COVID, I can't remember the exact circumstances, but I did have to call the agent to get the e-mail address for check-in on their website so she could get the boarding passes for the Ryanair app. Wizz operate a different system with different permissions, but I'd argue the e-mail address the airline have is the most important part here.

Under scenario 3, it wouldn't quite be 100%, there would be some banking charges (up to £4 for 4 transactions at the higher end, potentially plus card processing charges at 2-3%) and some staff time, office overheads etc, but that in court ultimately would come down to whether a court deems the fee to be fair in your case.

As a personal opinion, on a £2000 return Business Class to Sydney, it quite possibly would be, on a £36 return Wizz flight for 2 people (which I have booked for next week) possibly not. This is not necessarily how a court would view this.

As presumably you've paid MyTrip and not Wizz, Section 75 won't be relevant, but as above, other consumer rights legislation may be.

All makes sense and appreciate the thoughts here. 

I'll see what happens - "Which" did some coverage of this issue and suggested both contacting airlines directly and going through credit card providers for chargebacks due to believing this isn't a fair practice but ultimately we'll see. I have an estimated dispute closure date of late November. Happy to report back what ends up happening but based on all of the above, I fear you may indeed be right with regards to the outcome.

Thus potentially coming to the conclusion here that legally, maybe it is OK. Morally? I still put my foot down and call this an awful practice as even if only a small profit margin on the administrative fee, it's a business model which means you profit from people not travelling after booking with you (not from people actually travelling).

CKhalvashi

MercilessKiller said:

CKhalvashi said:

If the contract is structured in the way that they're your agent and you are the client directly (which I can't confirm in this case, but this arrangement is rare), then that may be true. I've only ever booked in the app or on the website, not through a third party.

I don't think (and need to go out to meet a client in a minute, but will check later, if I haven't by this evening please PM me) that there is a legal right to be able to contact Wizz (unless you are the direct customer contractually, meaning in practical terms that MyTrip have booked the flights using your e-mail address) but their card. You'd have had access to the 120% credit directly in this case to use on the booking of your choice, which it doesn't sound like you've had, so this leads me to believe it's not your Wizz account that's been used. You can check this by tapping the 3 lines at the top of the app, scrolling down to ;your profile' at the bottom and then checking the 'Wizz Account' page, which on my phone is 2nd from the top on the right.

As an example of how I've seen low cost bookings work in practice through an agent, my mother booked a package (not flight only) to go to Budapest with a friend pre-COVID, I can't remember the exact circumstances, but I did have to call the agent to get the e-mail address for check-in on their website so she could get the boarding passes for the Ryanair app. Wizz operate a different system with different permissions, but I'd argue the e-mail address the airline have is the most important part here.

Under scenario 3, it wouldn't quite be 100%, there would be some banking charges (up to £4 for 4 transactions at the higher end, potentially plus card processing charges at 2-3%) and some staff time, office overheads etc, but that in court ultimately would come down to whether a court deems the fee to be fair in your case.

As a personal opinion, on a £2000 return Business Class to Sydney, it quite possibly would be, on a £36 return Wizz flight for 2 people (which I have booked for next week) possibly not. This is not necessarily how a court would view this.

As presumably you've paid MyTrip and not Wizz, Section 75 won't be relevant, but as above, other consumer rights legislation may be.

All makes sense and appreciate the thoughts here. 

I'll see what happens - "Which" did some coverage of this issue and suggested both contacting airlines directly and going through credit card providers for chargebacks due to believing this isn't a fair practice but ultimately we'll see. I have an estimated dispute closure date of late November. Happy to report back what ends up happening but based on all of the above, I fear you may indeed be right with regards to the outcome.

Thus potentially coming to the conclusion here that legally, maybe it is OK. Morally? I still put my foot down and call this an awful practice as even if only a small profit margin on the administrative fee, it's a business model which means you profit from people not travelling after booking with you (not from people actually travelling).

Unfortunately at the moment, yes it appears it's legal. I agree it's immoral, especially as I don't think I've ever paid more than about £50pp for a one way flight with Wizz with most flights being in the £20-30 range. I don't think there's an argument that the agency has some costs, but feel the question should be asked regarding how much their costs actually are.

Which are a private organisation and effectively function for their members. They will take a harder line on consumer rights than they expect to gain in any legislation as it's in their interests to. In future you have more protection booking directly with the airline than with another company, except in the case of a package which has further legislation in place.

I wish you luck on a personal level, but don't think legally you have a leg to stand on.

mattyprice4004

MercilessKiller said:

CKhalvashi said:

If the contract is structured in the way that they're your agent and you are the client directly (which I can't confirm in this case, but this arrangement is rare), then that may be true. I've only ever booked in the app or on the website, not through a third party.

I don't think (and need to go out to meet a client in a minute, but will check later, if I haven't by this evening please PM me) that there is a legal right to be able to contact Wizz (unless you are the direct customer contractually, meaning in practical terms that MyTrip have booked the flights using your e-mail address) but their card. You'd have had access to the 120% credit directly in this case to use on the booking of your choice, which it doesn't sound like you've had, so this leads me to believe it's not your Wizz account that's been used. You can check this by tapping the 3 lines at the top of the app, scrolling down to ;your profile' at the bottom and then checking the 'Wizz Account' page, which on my phone is 2nd from the top on the right.

As an example of how I've seen low cost bookings work in practice through an agent, my mother booked a package (not flight only) to go to Budapest with a friend pre-COVID, I can't remember the exact circumstances, but I did have to call the agent to get the e-mail address for check-in on their website so she could get the boarding passes for the Ryanair app. Wizz operate a different system with different permissions, but I'd argue the e-mail address the airline have is the most important part here.

Under scenario 3, it wouldn't quite be 100%, there would be some banking charges (up to £4 for 4 transactions at the higher end, potentially plus card processing charges at 2-3%) and some staff time, office overheads etc, but that in court ultimately would come down to whether a court deems the fee to be fair in your case.

As a personal opinion, on a £2000 return Business Class to Sydney, it quite possibly would be, on a £36 return Wizz flight for 2 people (which I have booked for next week) possibly not. This is not necessarily how a court would view this.

As presumably you've paid MyTrip and not Wizz, Section 75 won't be relevant, but as above, other consumer rights legislation may be.

All makes sense and appreciate the thoughts here. 

I'll see what happens - "Which" did some coverage of this issue and suggested both contacting airlines directly and going through credit card providers for chargebacks due to believing this isn't a fair practice but ultimately we'll see. I have an estimated dispute closure date of late November. Happy to report back what ends up happening but based on all of the above, I fear you may indeed be right with regards to the outcome.

Thus potentially coming to the conclusion here that legally, maybe it is OK. Morally? I still put my foot down and call this an awful practice as even if only a small profit margin on the administrative fee, it's a business model which means you profit from people not travelling after booking with you (not from people actually travelling).

I've highlighted the important part. 
Businesses don't make money from being the best morally, they do what they legally need to. 

This has been discussed at length over the last few months, and unfortunately the consensus is that administration fees are perfectly acceptable. 

MercilessKiller

So a brief update!

Amex closed the dispute and credited my account - though at the same time I got an email saying they estimate to close it on November 23rd (bit confusing so assuming it is still open until then). 

Meanwhile, MyTrip got in contact with me and said they received a chargeback request and will reply in January 2022. Not sure how this works as Amex told me they'll resolve in November...

The worry I now have is the flight was booked for December. So let's say mytrip fight it in January 2022 and Amex reverse the chargeback, can I then go back to MyTrip, pay the admin fee and get the refund in Jan 2022 for the cancelled flight or will they say I needed to do that BEFORE the flight date? I.E could I lose my ability to get any refund due to this going on beyond the flight date?

Eurghhh

Butts

MercilessKiller said:

So a brief update!

Amex closed the dispute and credited my account - though at the same time I got an email saying they estimate to close it on November 23rd (bit confusing so assuming it is still open until then). 

Meanwhile, MyTrip got in contact with me and said they received a chargeback request and will reply in January 2022. Not sure how this works as Amex told me they'll resolve in November...

The worry I now have is the flight was booked for December. So let's say mytrip fight it in January 2022 and Amex reverse the chargeback, can I then go back to MyTrip, pay the admin fee and get the refund in Jan 2022 for the cancelled flight or will they say I needed to do that BEFORE the flight date? I.E could I lose my ability to get any refund due to this going on beyond the flight date?

Eurghhh

Are they extracting the urine ?

MercilessKiller

Butts said:

MercilessKiller said:

So a brief update!

Amex closed the dispute and credited my account - though at the same time I got an email saying they estimate to close it on November 23rd (bit confusing so assuming it is still open until then). 

Meanwhile, MyTrip got in contact with me and said they received a chargeback request and will reply in January 2022. Not sure how this works as Amex told me they'll resolve in November...

The worry I now have is the flight was booked for December. So let's say mytrip fight it in January 2022 and Amex reverse the chargeback, can I then go back to MyTrip, pay the admin fee and get the refund in Jan 2022 for the cancelled flight or will they say I needed to do that BEFORE the flight date? I.E could I lose my ability to get any refund due to this going on beyond the flight date?

Eurghhh

Are they extracting the urine ?

It seems purposeful that they wont respond to it until after the flight - My worry is that's to avoid having to give me any refund at all basically.