1 week into home renovation / extension - should we pull the plug already?

[Deleted User]

Don't incite drama 😠

Doozergirl

Maarakaan said:

Can someone explain to me why OPs email caused this level of offense?

A couple of you that are in the business (doozergirl/section62 I think?) seem to agree that this is what caused the problem and I find that curious - I read it as "we think something's gone wrong and want to clear it up prior to more labour/materials going into continuing down the wrong path - please come around so we can show you/sit down/discuss".

From OPs posts it seems like the builder isn't really present to just catch him on site to ask about these issues so he's sent an email to get him to come around.
I can see that a call is less ambiguous, but surely the difference between getting an unpleasant call or an unpleasant email on a Friday can't be that big to cause/not cause this kind of blowup?

Nothing to do with being in the business particularly, I was taught that there are some things you email about and other things that you do not if you can avoid it.  It didn't need to be an unpleasant phone call, but it will read like an unpleasant email because the chances for things to be misconstrued is high.   A Friday night isn't the time to do it either, when nothing constructive can be done.

Builders don't receive customer service training, hence the response.  

Bendy_House

Section62 said:

Bendy_House said:

Again, fitting a steel and then planning to slip the padstones in afterwards is nuts.

The padstones should be bedded down and completely level with eachother before the steel gets a sniff of its final location.

As I said above - that depends on whether the beam has actually been installed, or has just been moved into position.

On some renovation/modification works there is a narrow window of opportunity to move big lumps of steel around, and that doesn't always tie up with when you are ready to install it.

So you move the beam to roughly where it is going to be and safely store it there until you are ready to do the installing.

Insertion and installing aren't the same thing, although to a layperson the difference wouldn't always be obvious.

I wouldn't leap to judge the builder before knowing exactly what they have done, and what they intend to do - because sometimes on building projects misunderstandings easily occur [threads passim].

Fair do's. I was going by; "They have put a steel in on the ground floor which is supporting a section of the rear wall of the dormer".

Rosa_Damascena

Doozergirl said:

Maarakaan said:

Can someone explain to me why OPs email caused this level of offense?

A couple of you that are in the business (doozergirl/section62 I think?) seem to agree that this is what caused the problem and I find that curious - I read it as "we think something's gone wrong and want to clear it up prior to more labour/materials going into continuing down the wrong path - please come around so we can show you/sit down/discuss".

From OPs posts it seems like the builder isn't really present to just catch him on site to ask about these issues so he's sent an email to get him to come around.
I can see that a call is less ambiguous, but surely the difference between getting an unpleasant call or an unpleasant email on a Friday can't be that big to cause/not cause this kind of blowup?

Nothing to do with being in the business particularly, I was taught that there are some things you email about and other things that you do not if you can avoid it.  It didn't need to be an unpleasant phone call, but it will read like an unpleasant email because the chances for things to be misconstrued is high.   A Friday night isn't the time to do it either, when nothing constructive can be done.

Builders don't receive customer service training, hence the response.  

So well said.

Rosa_Damascena

theoretica said:

Not uncommon for someone to be good with their hands but not with plans/reading.

Some of us are great with theory but useless with regard to all practical matters

Rosa_Damascena

Section62 said:

We would always send bright-eyed graduate engineers out on site for a few weeks with the oldest CoWs to help remove some of the idealism from of them. Then they could start designing things that would work.

If only the same thing always happened with graduate architects.

I really take issue with this. Let the new entrants get disillusioned in their own time, don't deliberately infect with a poor cultural attitude from the outset. Otherwise things will never improve.

Doozergirl

Rosa_Damascena said:

Section62 said:

We would always send bright-eyed graduate engineers out on site for a few weeks with the oldest CoWs to help remove some of the idealism from of them. Then they could start designing things that would work.

If only the same thing always happened with graduate architects.

I really take issue with this. Let the new entrants get disillusioned in their own time, don't deliberately infect with a poor cultural attitude from the outset. Otherwise things will never improve.

I don't this it's that.  It's about realism.   The quicker you learn that building is often more art than science, the better.  Practical
site experience is so important.  

Section62

Maarakaan said:

Can someone explain to me why OPs email caused this level of offense?

A couple of you that are in the business (doozergirl/section62 I think?) seem to agree that this is what caused the problem and I find that curious - I read it as "we think something's gone wrong and want to clear it up prior to more labour/materials going into continuing down the wrong path - please come around so we can show you/sit down/discuss".

For me it's the same as Doozergirl says - not specific to building, but instead an aspect of most business communication.

I also made the point that we (including the OP) don't know what other communication might have been going on between the joiner and builder and what kind of picture has been painted.

Emails and other electronic messaging removes all remaining non-verbal cues out of a conversation (on the phone you still have pace, pitch and tone as cues) resulting in the only conveyance of meaning being through the choice of words.  It is easy for misunderstandings to take place, as perfectly demonstrated by the OP's reaction to Doozergirl's first posts.

If you are looking for something specific in the email then for me it would be "before work recommences Monday".  This, I assume entirely inadvertently, amounts to an imposition of dominance - some might interpret it as a 'power trip' - the sender appears to be commanding the recipient not to do anything else until they have been educated on what is expected from them.  It has echoes of "See me" scrawled over homework.

I'm sure that isn't what the OP intended - they see it purely as the avoidance of wasted materials and labour.  But for the builder it has the practical effects of (i) needing to contact the joiner out of hours to give them instructions (ii) having workers on site being paid but not doing anything (iii) the builder having to alter his schedule to attend site asap (iv) a potential knock-on effect on the build programme.

In construction it would amount to a claim event if the client instructs the contractor to stop work until a meeting takes place - the contractor would be entitled to claim day rates for all the labour and plant for the downtime, plus consideration of the delay in subsequent problems with the programme. It can get very expensive very quickly, so as an engineer it would take exceptional circumstances (such as a serious H&S issue) for me to give such an instruction.

In building work things tend to be a bit more relaxed - but the costs and hassle factors still apply, so if the builder thinks their client (or architect) is likely to demand work stops on a regular basis that might cause them to want a renegotiation of the contract on new terms.

Communication is key - Friday night emails aren't the most effective and productive medium to communicate.

Maarakaan

Thanks both - in my line of work it would have been perfectly normal (or even encouraged) to send an email similar to OPs to a client/supplier asap in order to reduce waste - irrespective of it being a Friday night. 

Given the builder doesn't seem to be around regularly, is it a solution to just schedule weekly/2x week/other frequency meetings with the main point of contact @ the contractor in order to chat through stuff like this? Must help having the meeting in the calendar before things go wrong so both sides know this is where to air grievances/potential issues?
Also puts the onus on them to get it right/fix it/offer concessions if it was a mistake rather than a conscious change of design (e.g. the rafter example.)

(Sorry to go somewhat off topic/generalist, just useful and interesting to see how different walks of life have a different approach to communicating)

Section62

Doozergirl said:

Rosa_Damascena said:

Section62 said:

We would always send bright-eyed graduate engineers out on site for a few weeks with the oldest CoWs to help remove some of the idealism from of them. Then they could start designing things that would work.

If only the same thing always happened with graduate architects.

I really take issue with this. Let the new entrants get disillusioned in their own time, don't deliberately infect with a poor cultural attitude from the outset. Otherwise things will never improve.

I don't this it's that.  It's about realism.   The quicker you learn that building is often more art than science, the better.  Practical
site experience is so important.  

Completely.  It has nothing to do with disillusionment, nor infecting anyone with anything, least of all a 'poor cultural attitude'.

If anything, with some graduates it is a case of tempering their existing 'poor cultural attitude' that anyone without a degree or who gets their hands dirty for a living is less intelligent than them.

Those few weeks would enable them to understand (if they don't already) that practical skills are every bit as valuable as technical knowledge in this industry, and that everybody on site needs to be considered with respect for the essential role they play.

But principally, it is about learning the importance of communication in all its forms - understanding how people can interpret things differently, how assumptions you make aren't necessarily the same as assumptions other people make, and that if something is vitally important (like the position of a door or window, or the alignment of tiles) then you need to ensure you've communicated that in a way that leaves no ambiguity, and that the message has been completely understood by those doing the work.

We were strongly encouraged to take a year out in industry during the third year of our degree precisely to learn this stuff - and the practical realities that designs and drawings are only a guide to how something should be built, there's still a lot of figuring out which needs to be done on the hoof.