1 week into home renovation / extension - should we pull the plug already?

Bendy_House

BlueC said:

It's not easy for them working around the weather and us living here so I expect this has hindered them a little so progress has been slower than I would anticipate. The joiner seems a little lacking in confidence and keeps complaining to me about the builder - vague stuff but basically I think he is not being given the direction he would like.

Anyway, on Thursday evening I noticed the timber frame work they had built for the centre window was in the wrong place. I had a chat with the joiner on Friday morning and he put it right. On Friday after they finished I then noticed that the frame work for another window was in the wrong place. They had also started to build the dormer cheek (i.e. the side wall of the dormer) and had started to construct this inside the wall of the house whereas the plans quite clearly show it is to be built off the inner leaf of the existing wall. This is because the finished internal wall of the dormer will meet an existing internal wall - i.e. there are already rooms in the roof space which the dormer is extending.

He then tried to say that things such as a window in the wrong place are minor issues that can be corrected and that you can't build exactly from architects plans.

It's not easy for them working around the weather and us living here so I expect this has hindered them a little so progress has been slower than I would anticipate. Clearly, this is not going to be ideal for any builder. Can you describe in what actual ways this could/has been be a hindrance to them, and is there any way you can mitigate this? (If you can, it could be a very good 'concession' you could offer the builder in order to ease the situation; "I'll make sure the kids are dressed and out of these rooms by 8am...".)

I noticed the timber frame work they had built for the centre window was in the wrong place. The actual practical issues involved here are obviously going to be at the heart of the friction, and the problem for us is that we cannot 'see' just what, and how serious, these issues were. So, could you describe at least one of them in more detail, please? Ie, if you hadn't been knowledgeable enough to point out the discrepancy, what actual measurable and visual difference could this 'error' have made?

I then noticed that the frame work for another window was in the wrong place. Ditto, please. It would help us to understand the builder's reply; He then tried to say that things such as a window in the wrong place are minor issues that can be corrected.

I would suggest that the last thing you actually want is for this builder to leave the job. One possible solution is as mentioned earlier (by Doozer?) - with the agreement of the builder, you employ a CofW to oversee, and even guide when/if needed, the uncertain joiner; someone he can hopefully get clarification from, since his own boss is barely there. Or, what about the architect of the actual plans - is there a better person to employ to be available at the end of a phoneline, or to call round at certain intervals to check the joiner fully understands the next stages. This isn't rocket science - it's far more complex :-) Seriously, there's nothing like having a good chat with someone 'who knows' in order to get things straight in your head. And who is better than the archi? In theory.

Section62

BlueC said:

The joiner seems a little lacking in confidence and keeps complaining to me about the builder - vague stuff but basically I think he is not being given the direction he would like. But really I don't want to hear about this.

Also, if the joiner is saying this stuff to you about the builder, ask yourself what he might be saying to the builder about you.


Your email on Friday might have followed a week of the builder hearing all about the "problems you've been causing".

The builder might not be the problem here.


But poor management of building works on the contractor's side can usually be rectified by increased management from the client side.

stuart45

I've worked with plenty of people that couldn't read plans, although it was more often bricklayers than chippies. On a lot of sites only a chosen few get to see the drawings.

Doozergirl

prowla said:

You cannot assume that anybody doing work for you will follow the intentions, designs, do things properly, and to the required standard; they simply won't.

If you are going to manage the build, then you will need to do so actively on a daily or hourly basis.

It doesn't matter if someone's doing a fence, a kitchen, some carpentry, or an extension - they will simply go off-piste.

You have to watch them like a hawk.

Nooooo.  You need to do due diligence, discuss in detail, check in often.   You'll only annoy people by watching them like a hawk.  

Would you like it if someone was doing that to you at work? 

Section62

Bendy_House said:

I would suggest that the last thing you actually want is for this builder to leave the job. One possible solution is as mentioned earlier (by Doozer?) - with the agreement of the builder, you employ a CofW to oversee, and even guide when/if needed, the uncertain joiner; someone he can hopefully get clarification from, since his own boss is barely there. Or, what about the architect of the actual plans - is there a better person to employ to be available at the end of a phoneline, or to call round at certain intervals to check the joiner fully understands the next stages. This isn't rocket science - it's far more complex :-) Seriously, there's nothing like having a good chat with someone 'who knows' in order to get things straight in your head. And who is better than the archi? In theory.

In my experience having the architect on site with a tetchy builder is the last thing you need.

To use a practical example based on something Doozergirl suggested - moving the position of the dormer slightly to match the existing rafter positions (eminently sensible) is the kind of thing that some architects will baulk over and start having hissy fits about this disrupting the flow and balance of the rooflines... even if the difference is only 10mm.

When you get to the stage of actually building the thing you need oversight by people with practical (hands-on preferably) experience of building stuff.


We would always send bright-eyed graduate engineers out on site for a few weeks with the oldest CoWs to help remove some of the idealism from of them. Then they could start designing things that would work.

If only the same thing always happened with graduate architects.


(Disclaimer: I appreciate not all architects are as described above)

Doozergirl

Section62 said:

Bendy_House said:

I would suggest that the last thing you actually want is for this builder to leave the job. One possible solution is as mentioned earlier (by Doozer?) - with the agreement of the builder, you employ a CofW to oversee, and even guide when/if needed, the uncertain joiner; someone he can hopefully get clarification from, since his own boss is barely there. Or, what about the architect of the actual plans - is there a better person to employ to be available at the end of a phoneline, or to call round at certain intervals to check the joiner fully understands the next stages. This isn't rocket science - it's far more complex :-) Seriously, there's nothing like having a good chat with someone 'who knows' in order to get things straight in your head. And who is better than the archi? In theory.

In my experience having the architect on site with a tetchy builder is the last thing you need.

To use a practical example based on something Doozergirl suggested - moving the position of the dormer slightly to match the existing rafter positions (eminently sensible) is the kind of thing that some architects will baulk over and start having hissy fits about this disrupting the flow and balance of the rooflines... even if the difference is only 10mm.

When you get to the stage of actually building the thing you need oversight by people with practical (hands-on preferably) experience of building stuff.


We would always send bright-eyed graduate engineers out on site for a few weeks with the oldest CoWs to help remove some of the idealism from of them. Then they could start designing things that would work.

If only the same thing always happened with graduate architects.


(Disclaimer: I appreciate not all architects are as described above)

Yup.  We will not work under an architect.  My H had one make us build bespoke doors that were to be painted white when they ostensibly fire door blanks!  

Of course the customer wouldn't have cared but they thought they had this eminent professional who was really just pleasuring himself over a few streets of turn of the century Barratt stuff.  

It was a disaster.  The architect used us as a scapegoat at every turn and yet we can manage our own projects with no issues at all.  

Never, ever again.  

Bendy_House

Fair do's, folks   Sounds like not a good recipe.

theoretica

With the building trade so busy I suspect that you could be dealing with a builder who has taken on as many projects as he could possibly squeeze in, and the new staff adds to this impression. So might have an awful lot to fit in first thing on Monday.

BlueC

@Bendy_House here are some details of the incorrectly placed windows...

The dormer will extend 3 existing rooms which are currently in the roof space and have velux windows and restricted head space. The two rooms at each side are bedrooms and the middle is a bathroom. The architect's designs are not complicated - they basically just say that each window should be central to each room. The joiner had built the middle window (bathroom) off-centre by about 400mm. This would have looked dreadful both internally and externally.

The second bedroom actually will have french doors (not a window per se) onto a balcony which is above a set of existing french doors on the ground floor. As is typical, the french doors at the ground floor level are in the centre of the room and therefore the architect has specified that the french doors above should be the same. The joiner has built the frame for these french doors miles off centre - not even close. If it were actually built and finished like this it would look absolutely ridiculous.

TBH these are such simple and obvious things that it makes me worry that the joiner doesn't actually know how to read plans?

Two things here:

1) I realise these frames could probably be rectified later, but what's the point in building a timber frame with spaces for windows and doors yet putting them in the wrong place?

2) If they had some valid reason to not put them where specified then this needs to be a conversation with us/the architect. Sadly though in this case they haven't done this for any reason, other than they haven't understood how to interpret the plans.

Doozergirl

He probably doesn't understand why.   He's
probably
turned up in the roof and hasn't even properly
looked at the back of the house.  

Communication is just as valuable
as the plans - in fact moreso to a lot of tradespeople who sadly aren't the most literate group as a collective.   😬