1 week into home renovation / extension - should we pull the plug already?

Maarakaan

Doozergirl said:

Maarakaan said:

Can someone explain to me why OPs email caused this level of offense?

A couple of you that are in the business (doozergirl/section62 I think?) seem to agree that this is what caused the problem and I find that curious - I read it as "we think something's gone wrong and want to clear it up prior to more labour/materials going into continuing down the wrong path - please come around so we can show you/sit down/discuss".

From OPs posts it seems like the builder isn't really present to just catch him on site to ask about these issues so he's sent an email to get him to come around.
I can see that a call is less ambiguous, but surely the difference between getting an unpleasant call or an unpleasant email on a Friday can't be that big to cause/not cause this kind of blowup?

Nothing to do with being in the business particularly, I was taught that there are some things you email about and other things that you do not if you can avoid it.  It didn't need to be an unpleasant phone call, but it will read like an unpleasant email because the chances for things to be misconstrued is high.   A Friday night isn't the time to do it either, when nothing constructive can be done.

Builders don't receive customer service training, hence the response.  

I take your point and agree wholeheartedly - but, playing devils advocate/from a non tradesperson's view (and maybe what OP thought):
for me, Friday night would've seemed ideal - gives me time to sort out what needs changing/rejigging schedule/shoot off communication to the joiner/general planning, rather than having to do it on a weeknight when stuffs been happening all day anyway. 

Now obviously (from your and others responses) this is not how stuff works in that world. Think my point being that both sides in this specific instance could do with a healthy dollop of empathy - and use this misunderstanding to sit down and work out a plan for how to communicate for the rest of the build. Maybe chuck in an explanation/apology for why the email came through the way it did to appease things. 

stuart45

One of the reasons why people who start up as builders later on in life  and are successful when experienced tradesmen thought they would fail is that they understand customer service. 
Many of us in the trade spent their younger years on the bigger sites, and had to change their ways a bit when working in the domestic sector.

Section62

stuart45 said:

One of the reasons why people who start up as builders later on in life  and are successful when experienced tradesmen thought they would fail is that they understand customer service. 
Many of us in the trade spent their younger years on the bigger sites, and had to change their ways a bit when working in the domestic sector.

"The job would be great, if it wasn't for the customers"

How many times does that get said?

Section62

Bendy_House said:

Fair do's. I was going by; "They have put a steel in on the ground floor which is supporting a section of the rear wall of the dormer".

As the topic of the day is communication.....  taking things literally can be bad when there is conflicting or ambiguous information.

The sentence after that you've quoted used the term "placed in" - which a layperson might take as synonymous with "installed", but could equally mean 'moved into place'.

In a technical conversation about structural elements "placed in" is often used in the latter sense - i.e. the element is physically there but not yet fixed/torqued up/cured/de-propped (or whatever) ready to take the full structural load.

I wasn't sure which the OP meant.

Obviously the difference in a structural sense is significant, even though visually it can be impossible to tell the difference.

Hence the importance of communication and understanding the situation (ask questions) rather than (in your response) making assumptions and extrapolating that to pass judgement on the builder's ability.  More info is needed to conclude anything here. The best way of finding out would be asking him.

MalMonroe

Hi, you said " His response was that we should meet on Monday to talk about the future of the job because he's not happy with things and I'm not happy with things and basically he doesn't need the hassle of the job and a client that is "panicking over minor things so early on"."

I think that the builder was probably tired after a stressful working week and said that because he was frustrated. 
Hopefully, tomorrow at the start of a fresh week, all will be different and he will be in a place to listen to what you (the paying client, don't forget!) have to say. I'd allow him that one blip - but please remember that he isn't in charge of this project, YOU are.

If you are not happy, then that is certainly not panicking, it is wanting to get things put right before they go any further. Sensible, to my mind.

He, as a business-person, has to understand that you are paying good money to have this work done and you want it to be done to your specifications and also, properly. If he didn't want to do it to your specs, he should have said so in the first instance.

I'd give him a chance to tell you why he is feeling so disillusioned and you can have your say too. When you are both fresh, maybe over a cup of tea and some hobnobs. 

I wouldn't apologise to him (as someone else has suggested). He's being paid to do a job of work for you. And he/his workers should get on with it. If they can't do it, they'll have to say so, pack up their gear and leave. And you'll have to seek other help. But you haven't reached that point yet. 

I've had dealings with builders in the past and have had some horrendous experiences. Many of them may not have had training in dealing with customers but some good old fashioned courteous social interaction works just as well. You don't have to be trained to be a nice/polite person. 

jamesdid

I rarely jump in on topics such as this, however, there have been many things said on this thread, by many people whose opinion I take seriously and happily buy.

There was a thread a while back about how “we” form opinions of other forum users, Doozergirl, Freebear, Stuart, Section... too many to name, but you know who you (they) are, (the ones that don’t try to convince people they know best, it’s just obvious that they do).

I have used lots of trades people over the years, and have always tried to keep in mind, why I am using them, it’s because they can do something I can’t.

If you let a sparky, chippie, plasterer, bricklayer or the person that sweeps up, into your home, remember, they are there to help, and if they meet basic criteria, they should be treated with a huge amount of respect. Criteria from my point of view are –

do they care?

do they have pride?

and is your smile when they have finished important to them?

Mistakes happen, fixing them is something a good person will want to do, not have to do.

A quote that resurfaced a while back seems apt. “in a world where you can be anything – Be Kind”, the person sweeping up at the end of the job, might be the person you really need one day, and they will remember you.

 

p.s. Thanks to all those who give their time and advise for free.

Section62

MalMonroe said:

...and he will be in a place to listen to what you (the paying client, don't forget!) have to say. I'd allow him that one blip - but please remember that he isn't in charge of this project, YOU are.

As someone who has spent most of my career on the paying client side I'd say that approach stinks and would be a highly effective way to ensure this project goes from bad to worse.

It has strong hints of the kind of arrogance which would make any sensible trader pack their bags and move on to a different job.

I'd also point out - with no disrespect to the OP - that it isn't clear who is in charge of this project.  If the OP wishes to be in charge then they need to make that clear and agreed with all parties, but that also comes with the responsibility of being available for as many hours of the day is necessary to make decisions when needed. Very few domestic clients will be willing to take on that role - it is a hard one to do.

One of the unpleasant sides to domestic work is the lack of clarity over roles and responsibilities.  My interpretation of the OP's position is they believe the builder is now in charge of the project, with responsibility to build exactly to the plans (and presumably budget).  If not, then I'm not sure the builder and joiner are aware how this project is being run - and that could be part of the confusion.

Good projects work from a partnership between the participants - the 'command and control' approach implied in your remarks is rarely the most productive.

MalMonroe said:

He, as a business-person, has to understand that you are paying good money to have this work done and you want it to be done to your specifications and also, properly. If he didn't want to do it to your specs, he should have said so in the first instance.

Every building project requires some level of compromise.

Good project management requires someone with the skills and delegated authority to identify/agree/accept compromise, and to know when decisions need to be referred up.  An experienced CoW is the kind of person who can do that - with neither the client nor contractor having to give up too much, or needing to accept compromises that are unacceptable.

MalMonroe said:

I wouldn't apologise to him (as someone else has suggested). He's being paid to do a job of work for you. And he/his workers should get on with it. If they can't do it, they'll have to say so, pack up their gear and leave. And you'll have to seek other help. But you haven't reached that point yet. 

Before offering that advice you need to first think about the consequences if the builder decides to throw in the towel tomorrow.

Having holes in the roof for Christmas will make it easier for Santa to deliver presents. But that is about the only positive aspect I can think of.

bbat

OP,  how did today go? 

Rosa_Damascena

Section62 said:

Doozergirl said:

Rosa_Damascena said:

Section62 said:

We would always send bright-eyed graduate engineers out on site for a few weeks with the oldest CoWs to help remove some of the idealism from of them. Then they could start designing things that would work.

If only the same thing always happened with graduate architects.

I really take issue with this. Let the new entrants get disillusioned in their own time, don't deliberately infect with a poor cultural attitude from the outset. Otherwise things will never improve.

I don't this it's that.  It's about realism.   The quicker you learn that building is often more art than science, the better.  Practical
site experience is so important.  

Completely.  It has nothing to do with disillusionment, nor infecting anyone with anything, least of all a 'poor cultural attitude'.

If anything, with some graduates it is a case of tempering their existing 'poor cultural attitude' that anyone without a degree or who gets their hands dirty for a living is less intelligent than them.

Those few weeks would enable them to understand (if they don't already) that practical skills are every bit as valuable as technical knowledge in this industry, and that everybody on site needs to be considered with respect for the essential role they play.

But principally, it is about learning the importance of communication in all its forms - understanding how people can interpret things differently, how assumptions you make aren't necessarily the same as assumptions other people make, and that if something is vitally important (like the position of a door or window, or the alignment of tiles) then you need to ensure you've communicated that in a way that leaves no ambiguity, and that the message has been completely understood by those doing the work.

We were strongly encouraged to take a year out in industry during the third year of our degree precisely to learn this stuff - and the practical realities that designs and drawings are only a guide to how something should be built, there's still a lot of figuring out which needs to be done on the hoof.

That makes a lot more sense, thanks!

Doozergirl

Section62 said:

MalMonroe said:

...and he will be in a place to listen to what you (the paying client, don't forget!) have to say. I'd allow him that one blip - but please remember that he isn't in charge of this project, YOU are.

As someone who has spent most of my career on the paying client side I'd say that approach stinks and would be a highly effective way to ensure this project goes from bad to worse.

It has strong hints of the kind of arrogance which would make any sensible trader pack their bags and move on to a different job.

I'd also point out - with no disrespect to the OP - that it isn't clear who is in charge of this project.  If the OP wishes to be in charge then they need to make that clear and agreed with all parties, but that also comes with the responsibility of being available for as many hours of the day is necessary to make decisions when needed. Very few domestic clients will be willing to take on that role - it is a hard one to do.

One of the unpleasant sides to domestic work is the lack of clarity over roles and responsibilities.  My interpretation of the OP's position is they believe the builder is now in charge of the project, with responsibility to build exactly to the plans (and presumably budget).  If not, then I'm not sure the builder and joiner are aware how this project is being run - and that could be part of the confusion.

Good projects work from a partnership between the participants - the 'command and control' approach implied in your remarks is rarely the most productive.

MalMonroe said:

He, as a business-person, has to understand that you are paying good money to have this work done and you want it to be done to your specifications and also, properly. If he didn't want to do it to your specs, he should have said so in the first instance.

Every building project requires some level of compromise.

Good project management requires someone with the skills and delegated authority to identify/agree/accept compromise, and to know when decisions need to be referred up.  An experienced CoW is the kind of person who can do that - with neither the client nor contractor having to give up too much, or needing to accept compromises that are unacceptable.

MalMonroe said:

I wouldn't apologise to him (as someone else has suggested). He's being paid to do a job of work for you. And he/his workers should get on with it. If they can't do it, they'll have to say so, pack up their gear and leave. And you'll have to seek other help. But you haven't reached that point yet. 

Before offering that advice you need to first think about the consequences if the builder decides to throw in the towel tomorrow.

Having holes in the roof for Christmas will make it easier for Santa to deliver presents. But that is about the only positive aspect I can think of.

I agree with all of this. 

The first paragraph you quoted is really quite offensive.  I'm not sure if it's a snobbery about builders or an ignorance of what engaging someone means.  I've run a business for a few years now and no one really works for me -  I rely on everyone to be expert at their role and that is rooted in respect, not in pound notes.  Same when people engage us - we're the experts, hence they've asked us in the first place!   Or course it's our job to translate what a client wants into reality, but there's no power play going on - it's all about respect and trust. 

Yes, things go wrong but I've never pulled a 'I'm paying your wages' moment on anyone, ever.  The moment anyone does that to me, they lose my respect immediately.  I remember I worked for Lloyds TSB when it was acquired by the government.  A parent I didn't know from the school that my son had started that week had asked for help getting her children to/from school as her leg was in a cast.  One of the first things she said to me (having just delivered her children to her) was "I pay your wages".  I have never forgotten that.  By the same token, I paid my own wages! I still collected and dropped her children almost every day for weeks on end.  She bought me a small box of Maltesers to say thank you.  Presumably she thought that paying my wages was better than helping with the petrol
or stretching to a bottle of wine.