Vcs letter before claim

Pants182

ive been looking at the information they have sent me again last night and they haven't send any images of signage or the road, the picture could literally be anywhere, is it for them to prove that it in where they say it is?

Umkomaas

Pants182 said:

ive been looking at the information they have sent me again last night and they haven't send any images of signage or the road, the picture could literally be anywhere, is it for them to prove that it in where they say it is?

The earliest you are likely to see these is at the Witness Statement and Evidence stage, some months away, if it gets that far. 

Fruitcake

Your last version of your defence says, "I". This should be changed to "defendant" in all instances.

If you were not the driver, then you should say so in para 2. You are the keeper but were not the driver.

You current version is too long, contains irrelevant information, and omits some important info.

Give me an hour and I'll have a go at tweaking it.

Pants182

I haven't stated who was driving the car in previous correspondence with them. 

I was advised by another forum user that i have a better chance if i state i wasnt the driver when it comes to freedom information?

Sorry I am reading the infoo just not fully understanding it and my brain is like is muss. i dont want to say something that is incorrect then having to try and resolve later down the line.

thank you for your time

Fruitcake

Suggestions. See what others think.
Note the comments about not being the driver, and the driver not being liable only applies if you truly were not the driver. The judge may ask you if you were driving. You must tell the truth, both in your defence and at the hearing. If you truly were not driving, then you should say so.
Do not tell us who was driving if you know.


2.  It is admitted that the Defendant was the registered keeper of the vehicle in question but not the driver at the material time. Liability is denied.

3. A parking charge was issued to the keeper of vehicle registration number XXXXX  on Y date by Vehicle Control Services (VCS) for allegedly stopping for 13 seconds on a road at John Lennon Liverpool Airport (JLLA) where stopping is allegedly prohibited.
VCS subsequently issued a claim against the defendant on Z date.

It should be noted that VCS do not have authority from the landowner to issue parking charges on airport roads that are covered by airport byelaws.
In addition, the driver of a vehicle, if known, can be held liable for breaching airport byelaws, and a vehicle owner may be held liable. It is a fact in law that a vehicle keeper cannot be held liable for breaching airport byelaws, and VCS have no authority to issue charges for breach of byelaws. 
It is not know who was driving at the material time as several people have access and use of the car with the defendant's permission. 

Being an airport subject to statutory control (airport byelaws), the location is not relevant land as defined by the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012. Consequently the claimant cannot hold the keeper liable 

(Possible make this para 4 and renumber everything after.)

Stopping is not parking as determined in the case of Laura Jopson vs Homeguard Services, case number B9GF0A9E. Note that this was an appeal court case and therefore persuasive on the lower courts.

3 continued, or 4. The defendant made a site visit after receiving the court claim, and noted that there are no signs visible to a driver at the material location. Signs some distance away from the material location were noted, but they were too high (2 - 3m above ground level) to be read from a moving vehicle. Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule applies, where a sign must be so prominently displayed that a motorist could not possibly miss is. It is averred that no such signs existed at the material location.
Since the terms and conditions were not adequately brought to the attention of the driver, no contract can have been formed between the two parties, and therefore the defendant cannot be held liable.


Side note, have a look at Posts by DisruptiveLad. You could even send him a PM. He has told the forum that he has documented proof from the airport operator/landowner that VCS do not have authority to issue parking charges at JLLA.

1505grandad

Pedantic observation:-

"It is not known who was driving at the material time....."

DisruptiveLad

Spread the word...Elms Legal are still representing VCS on some cases. 

Pants182

i had sent this in 2017 after the letter before claim which got rid of them until 2021 but this time it doesnt seem to have worked. is there naything i can use from this? cant take credit for it was a template from another webiste that helped me in 2017!
You are well versed on the situation regarding the alleged contractual application of your perverse rules which seek to overrule the actual lawful airport byelaws.

I point you to your situation as it appears from my own perspective.

1. The airport is under bye-law control so taking action outwith the conditions imposed on airport matters is at the very least extremely questionable and more than likely completely unlawful, as in your company has no legal standing to impose quite separate sanctions on people. The Notice to Keeper supports that bye-laws are in operation by your use of the word "contravention".

2. Stopping on an airport road is not part of the bye-law conditions.

3. The scale of penalties under the byelaws is no way similar to those you seek to impose.

4. Your use of the words "Parking Charges" is extremely underhand and deliberately incorrect. Stopping is most definitely not parking as even an occasion where a driver has to stop to read the very signs you say impose contractual obligations on him to "not stop" would be a contravention, as would be stopping to allow a pedestrian to cross in front of him.

5. There is no reasonable assumption that a driver is also the registered keeper or vice versa so continued pursuit of the keeper without evidence to back up that assertion is wrongly founded. This is not saved by your example of Elliott v Loake where the police in a criminal case had forensic proof that the keeper was the driver. See case reference C8DP67P5 Bradford County Court, 14/10/2016

6. The signs you employ at the site have not been authorised by Liverpool City Council and indeed they have confirmed they do not meet a standard required for compliance to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directive so the continued use of them is an actually provable criminal offence.

7. It is clear that you are attempting to make a gain whilst carrying out an activity of a criminal nature so the law is able to prevent that under the terms of Ex_turpi_causa_non_oritur_actio, ie: The court will not assist a claimant to recover a benefit from his own wrongdoing.

8 (a). If any wrongdoing had occurred according to the wording on your signs, which one must stop on the roadside to read anyway, it would be doing something which you strictly cannot enforce under the law of contract so this would be a matter of trespass. You forbid stopping on the roadside and however you care to rephrase that, you cannot contract with a driver to do something you forbid.
(b). Trespass is only actionable by the landowner and as the vehicle was accessing the airport by invitation as part of the normal business of airport activity it cannot be seen clearly where a trespass can have taken place.

9 (a). Wrongful use of personal data. You have obtained the personal details of myself being the registered keeper of the said vehicle under the provisions of the KADOE agreement with the DVLA. There is no contract you allegedly hold with myself as the registered keeper so accessing my personal details was a breach of the Data Protection Act.
(b). If you rely on the alleged breach of the supposed contractual relationship, you have been mistaken in your assessment of the situation as a matter of trespass cannot afford you the same access to my details unless you are the landholder/owner or have some proprietary interest in the land. I assume, more strongly than your own assumptions, that Peel Holding, the airport owners have not given you proprietary interest so you cannot access details under the assumption of tort of trespass.

10. Now my final statement set out below:

Notice of claim before action

Vehicle Control Services have accessed the DVLA database to obtain my personal information when they had no legal right to do so.
This has caused me great deal of anxiety and stress

My details seem to be of no consequence to VCS, nor does the fact that you know, or should know that you have no rights to obtain and use my personal details.

At the commencement and subsequent renewal of any contract with the airport you should have had the situation looked at professionally by a legal expert who would have have told you what I have made clear above. Failure of that does not mean you have any excuse for not complying with the Data Protection Act. You failed in your due diligence of proper consideration of all aspects of the contract.

A breach of the Data Protection Act cannot be saved by lack of due consideration.
I remind you of your recent loss in court for VCS v Phillip, Claim number C9DP2D6C Liverpool 07/12/2016.
The judge found that a breach of the DPA had been occasioned. As is exactly the same as here, the signs placed at the Liverpool Business Park are the same as on the airport. It is quite evident that it would be impossible to form a contract with a motorist where nothing is offered. You cannot offer a driver the permission to stop where stopping is prohibited and there would be insufficient notification of the terms of the signs without stopping to read them in any case.

I now address the matter of damages for the unlawful acquisition and, passage of same to a third party debt collection agency.

I claim an amount of £750 from you payable within 14 days.
Failure to make such payment will result in legal action being commenced without further notification

Pants182

i was driving the car so as this is now going to court probably best to state that.

thank you

Pants182

thanks fruitcake I will use your template, can I ask am I using the template in the newbies thread and then adding these in section 2 and 3 as stated earlier. I need to send this tonight. i shall read again but i remember it stating once I have done the defence, print it off, sign and sent back to county claims via email.

DisruptiveLad have emailed me with some advice to do outside of the defence so that was great!

thanks again all