Land at rear of property on orginal deeds

AdrianC

jbeechey92 said:

That’s the Picture of the said land so easier to understand and I have had a running in with the allotment guy who’s on the land registry of that said area of land and when I mentioned I got paper work ect im not getting off unless you send me a solicitors letter to my solicitor he pretty much backed down so surely if you had true claim to something you’d fight tooth and nail for it I would 😂 

Woah! That TOTALLY changes the situation...

You're angling for adverse possession of registered land, but the registered owner of that land has told you to vacate it...?

You have not got a leg to stand on. Clear your stuff, before this gets expensive for you.

Section62

AdrianC said:

Woah! That TOTALLY changes the situation...

You're angling for adverse possession of registered land, but the registered owner of that land has told you to vacate it...?

I thought that was already clear? The OP thought the allotment association had gained his land via adverse possession, whereas the evidence presented points to it always belonging to someone else, most likely now the allotment association.

The only situation in which the OP has a leg of any kind is if there is some historic error in the transfers which haven't yet become irreversible.

And the superficial historical evidence doesn't give any real hope of such an error existing.


In fact the only thing I can see which makes the allotment ownership question worth asking is the apparently separate uncertainty about the back alley - if that isn't registered and nobody knows who owns it then it is indicative that at some point in time the transfer of ownership of land in the vicinity hasn't been 100% complete and correct.

I wouldn't be very optimistic that will work out to the benefit of the OP though.

AdrianC

Section62 said:

AdrianC said:

Woah! That TOTALLY changes the situation...

You're angling for adverse possession of registered land, but the registered owner of that land has told you to vacate it...?

I thought that was already clear? The OP thought the allotment association had gained his land via adverse possession, whereas the evidence presented points to it always belonging to someone else, most likely now the allotment association.

I'd missed that it was registered in their name, and that the OP had already had his adverse possession attempt handed back to him...

tooldle

Section62 said:

AdrianC said:

Woah! That TOTALLY changes the situation...

You're angling for adverse possession of registered land, but the registered owner of that land has told you to vacate it...?

I thought that was already clear? The OP thought the allotment association had gained his land via adverse possession, whereas the evidence presented points to it always belonging to someone else, most likely now the allotment association.

The only situation in which the OP has a leg of any kind is if there is some historic error in the transfers which haven't yet become irreversible.

And the superficial historical evidence doesn't give any real hope of such an error existing.


In fact the only thing I can see which makes the allotment ownership question worth asking is the apparently separate uncertainty about the back alley - if that isn't registered and nobody knows who owns it then it is indicative that at some point in time the transfer of ownership of land in the vicinity hasn't been 100% complete and correct.

I wouldn't be very optimistic that will work out to the benefit of the OP though.

I'm in Wales as is the OP. The situation with the 'Back Alley' is really common here, particularly where land was leased prior to being split into parcels for housing. In my previous properties the land belonged to an 'Estate' . Plots were leased for building and eventually freeholds were sold. The interconnecting strips remained with the Estate. When the Estate ceases to exist, the ownership of the interconnecting strips becomes unknown. In my area of the city, where housing was built from 1850 onwards there are many such lanes where ownership is unknown. This would not give me the right to claim the land on the opposite side of the lane.

Edited to add: The OP does say the land originally was owned by the Crawshay family. These people were extremely wealthy in their day and owned considerable industrial interest (iron works) in the South Wales Valleys. 

jbeechey92

No ain’t got me off they haven’t pursued anything against me I’ve been on that plot now rent free for over 4 years and counting i clear it now and again and nobody owns the lane the allotment society don’t and it’s not on my title at land registry not even the local authority owns it as they would tarmac it otherwise it be claim city down the lane so my solicitor said each section of lane behind my property is owned by each terrace and she told me if it was to be tarmaced or maintained each house would have to pay for that even tho it’s not registered with the property 😂 so like I said I believe orginaly the lane and that section of land opposite belonged to the terraced houses then over 3 to 4 generations of property changing hands ect I think the land which is now the allotments has gradually been lost or forgotten about over generations only other way I can truly find out is find the orginal map that’s states the drawing of the said propertybut definitely think that will be tricky and I wouldn’t even know where to start looking for that, either way it’s a kick in the teeth if it did belong to the property forgotten about over years and then some allotment people have taken it under adverse possession but if that’s the case 2 can play that game I’m young got health and years on my side there old timers waiting for god so I don’t mind playing the waiting game either 😂 

theoretica

jbeechey92 said:

That’s the Picture of the said land so easier to understand and I have had a running in with the allotment guy who’s on the land registry of that said area of land and when I mentioned I got paper work ect im not getting off unless you send me a solicitors letter to my solicitor he pretty much backed down so surely if you had true claim to something you’d fight tooth and nail for it I would 😂 

Why should he?  They own it - you aren't currently doing anything to interfere with what they want to do with the land or their ownership - they may be grateful for it being cleared now and then.  And as a society it won't be personal the way it is for you.

AdrianC

Whether they took it via adverse possession or not is irrelevant. That was the previous owner's loss.

You do not own that land. You have never owned that land. You have no claim against that land.

After ten years of unchallenged occupation, you can apply to the Land Registry for title.
Because the land is registered, the registered owner is contacted and given the opportunity to object.

They undoubtedly will object, and that objection will include documentary evidence of their objection to your possession part-way through the ten year period. The ten years have not been completed until ten years FREE OF OBJECTION.

Whether they make other attempts to get you off the land is a totally separate question. You will not own it for years to come. All they need to do is to tell you to get off once a decade. Even if they don't do that, they have two years to object to your title application.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/adverse-possession-of-registered-land/practice-guide-4-adverse-possession-of-registered-land

The land is not even adjacent to yours - there is the access road between, and the boundaries are clearly marked - so you do not have the benefit of that clause.

All you are doing is wasting your time and getting an allotment rent-free. How much are you saving there...?

tooldle

jbeechey92 said:

No ain’t got me off they haven’t pursued anything against me I’ve been on that plot now rent free for over 4 years and counting i clear it now and again and nobody owns the lane the allotment society don’t and it’s not on my title at land registry not even the local authority owns it as they would tarmac it otherwise it be claim city down the lane so my solicitor said each section of lane behind my property is owned by each terrace and she told me if it was to be tarmaced or maintained each house would have to pay for that even tho it’s not registered with the property 😂 so like I said I believe orginaly the lane and that section of land opposite belonged to the terraced houses then over 3 to 4 generations of property changing hands ect I think the land which is now the allotments has gradually been lost or forgotten about over generations only other way I can truly find out is find the orginal map that’s states the drawing of the said propertybut definitely think that will be tricky and I wouldn’t even know where to start looking for that, either way it’s a kick in the teeth if it did belong to the property forgotten about over years and then some allotment people have taken it under adverse possession but if that’s the case 2 can play that game I’m young got health and years on my side there old timers waiting for god so I don’t mind playing the waiting game either 😂 

You say you don't own the lane, and in the next sentence you say you do own the lane. If it is not registered with the property, it is not yours (lane and allotment).You have no evidence the allotment land ever belonged to your house. 
I suggested earlier in the thread that you should approach the allotment society and ask how they come to be located where they are (assuming it is a private society). Now you tell us you've had altercation with the owner, so perhaps the owner will not be inclined to explain to you specifically, the historical ownership of the land. 
None of the above changes the simple fact that you have purchased only your house and its current garden. The land behind you is under different ownership and you have presented no evidence to demonstrate that ownership was acquired via adverse possession.

jbeechey92

What about the mention of a messuage ?? 

jbeechey92

In the orginal lease and also deed ?