Bank transfer for non delivery of items (scam). Am I covered by APP?

Oliroy

In June of this year a recording artist, who I’ve followed since the mid 90’s,  advertised items of their music production equipment for sale on various social media platforms (Instagram, Twitter, and FaceBook) Being a fan of their musical output, and also into music production, I messaged them directly about the advertised sale. We came to an agreement for other items not photographed or shown in the advert postings, but which were mentioned in the sale description as also being available. We messaged through instagram messaging, and also mobile text messages, and I then sent them bank transfer to their business listed bank account, totalling £2,150. As this person is fairly well known in the underground dance music scene, and the sale of items was openly advertised on various social media platforms (and the adverts are still there) I did not think anything untoward would entail. (I have screen grabs of all messages, and social media postings) 

The transfer was mid June, and since that time this person has failed to respond to my numerous attempts at communication (email, instagram messaging, text message, phone calls) and needless to say the items of equipment were never forthcoming. I can see they've been online on their various online accounts, but they never read my follow up direct messages. 

In light of this around six weeks ago I contacted my bank to advise them of the situation, and their fraud team would look into trying to trace the transferred funds. The transfer went to a business bank account, and all my bank can advise is they’re still looking into things. However they have explained that they are not liable for any loss incurred to myself, and this decision was made by them within 24 hours after I’d first notified them. Today I again spoke to them, and questioned how this decision was reached, as no one from the bank has asked for me to send them the links of the advertised sale of items on the three social media platforms, or asked for evidence/ screen shots of messages etc? I also said that I felt that if they could not trace and return the transferred funds, that I would still be covered under the APP scheme. The bank said that I would not be covered, as I did not make an attempt to view the items before sending funds. Again I explained that the adverts were still online and they could see for themselves photos of unique one off items of study equipment which can not be from stock photos etc. 

I have also found out that the person I transferred funds to has a CCJ against them for £3,500 from March of this year, however the information given does not expand if this was an individual or a company that are owed funds. Should the bank transfer to their business bank account even have been possible with a CCJ against this person in place? 

Given the length of time since the transfer, it looks unlikely that my bank will be able to return any transferred funds.  Would I be able to claim on the APP scheme? 

I’m really at a loss of how to proceed over this situation. 

ItsComingRome

There is no reason why a bank would block transfers to someone just because there is a CCJ in their name.

As far as APP fraud goes, this isn't APP fraud, it's just a ripoff. APP fraud would involve them posing as someone else (such as your bank) to convince you to transfer money over to them.  That's not what happened here.

The only way to proceed would be to obtain a CCJ against the company (assuming they were the actually sellers) although this may well be throwing good money after bad.

soulsaver

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but:

Do you think you made enough effort to distinguish between a scam and a genuine sale before transferring funds?

What steps did you take to assure yourself you were actually dealing with the recording artist?

What steps did you take to ensure the items actually existed?

You set up a new payee with your bank;  you got several warnings along the lines 'could this be a scam'; you ignored these and instructed your bank to proceed with the payment anyway.

And now?

I'm always interested to hear why people in these circumstances think the bank should refund them.

Oliroy

Thanks for clarifying the situation. 

The business bank account that I transferred the funds to are in the name that this person uses for their professional music output, so it is the seller. 

I had also thought that taking this person to civil court (CCJ)  would be my only option. But I highly suspect that this person has little funds or assets so that could be a waste of time and money. It'd just end up being another CCJ that this person has against them, with no sign of my money. 

Are there other options that I could consider? 

ItsComingRome

Oliroy said:

Thanks for clarifying the situation. 

The business bank account that I transferred the funds to are in the name that this person uses for their professional music output, so it is the seller. 

I had also thought that taking this person to civil court (CCJ)  would be my only option. But I highly suspect that this person has little funds or assets so that could be a waste of time and money. It'd just end up being another CCJ that this person has against them, with no sign of my money. 

Are there other options that I could consider? 

There are no other (legal) options.

GTR_King

I wonder what dance DJ This was as I love dance music, are they still making music today? can you share their name? did they have the blue tick next to their name for example Armin Van Burren/Dave Pearce (No tick on Instagram) has blue tick

No tick=account not verified 

Seems odd that some one famous would put his equipment up for sale then not send the items

are you sure it was 100% him, or someone else who has hacked into his accounts/ you paid money into business account in his name but he knew nothing about it

seems fishy to me

eskbanker

Oliroy said:

Are there other options that I could consider? 

If they're a well-known artist active on social media then you might be able to shame them into action via these platforms, or at least threaten to do so?  You'd need to be fairly careful about exactly how you did so, and perhaps warn them first ("I've repeatedly been trying to contact you via private messages but may need to do so more publicly if you fail to answer again"), but as above your bank isn't responsible and neither is anyone else....

Daliah

As the culprit appears to be a well-known person, or their business. this is a matter for the Courts. You could consider a Letter Before Action, and if this doesn't resolve matters, you can raise a Money Claim Online. There is no guarantee that you will get your money back as if they are insolvent, you'll just be in a queue of people owed money.

If the ads are still up, you could also report them to the owners of the sites the ads appear on, and you could consider reporting the culprit to Trading Standards.

In no event is your bank obliged to reimburse you.

Oliroy

GTR_King said:

I wonder what dance DJ This was as I love dance music, are they still making music today? can you share their name? did they have the blue tick next to their name for example Armin Van Burren/Dave Pearce (No tick on Instagram) has blue tick

No tick=account not verified 

Seems odd that some one famous would put his equipment up for sale then not send the items

are you sure it was 100% him, or someone else who has hacked into his accounts/ you paid money into business account in his name but he knew nothing about it

seems fishy to me

100% I am dealing with the dance music artist. I messaged direct to their long standing social media pages where they've postings of gigs they've performed at, and also posted photos of themselves in their studio etc 

Items of studio equipment are photographed and shown in their postings, and can only belong to them. However as I said the items I agreed to buy were only mentioned in the listing. 

I have also contacted this persons record label manager, who I have messaged about music in general a few years ago, and with whom I have a friendly relationship, to see if they could push things along.  They had difficulty contacting this person, and when they finally did and reminded them of the agreement with myself, was just told it would be dealt with in time. The record label manager is at a loss to explain things, and can only say that I will eventually get the items I paid for. But after nearly three months I have my doubts. 

To be fair this person was prolific in the mid 90's to early 2000, and very rarely they may do a one off DJ event now.

Yes it makes no sense. Well known in a sub genre of dance music, items on full display and still advertised as on offer.  That's why I did not foresee anything like this happening. 

Oliroy

eskbanker said:

Oliroy said:

Are there other options that I could consider? 

If they're a well-known artist active on social media then you might be able to shame them into action via these platforms, or at least threaten to do so?  You'd need to be fairly careful about exactly how you did so, and perhaps warn them first ("I've repeatedly been trying to contact you via private messages but may need to do so more publicly if you fail to answer again"), but as above your bank isn't responsible and neither is anyone else....

I have sent them numerous messages to their direct mobile number, but it appears they've blocked me, and also to their social media direct messages, but all of these are still showing as "unread", despite them being online numerous times.

I now understand now that my bank is not liable for this, and this was what I as unsure of, and also how best to proceed with this situation.

soulsaver

Oliroy said:

The business bank account that I transferred the funds to are in the name that this person uses for their professional music output, so it is the seller. 

I had also thought that taking this person to civil court (CCJ)  would be my only option. But I highly suspect that this person has little funds or assets so that could be a waste of time and money. It'd just end up being another CCJ that this person has against them, with no sign of my money. 

Are there other options that I could consider? 

The fact that the business is the in the person's/artist's name isn't anything other than an indication that they are even connected, never mind that it is the seller.

And if you are certain you are dealing with the company of/or the individual, then it's breach of contract - not, per se, a scam (fraud).

I don't believe it's expensive to pursue by small claims court.

A letter threatening action doesn't cost anything, but should be worded correctly. I f you want advice CAB maybe could help.