Bristol Airport NTK Stopping in a zone where stopping is prohibited

Fruitcake

Robot22 said:

Hi Fruitcake. I have had a looks at the maps. I am still a little confused. Which is the map showing the areas where they are not contracted? My concern is that we MAY have been on the red lines when we stopped. However we were still unaware of the no-stopping signs as we could not see them. Will I still have a defence? Thanks.for your assistance.

There are two maps with red lines showing the no-stopping zone. Strangely, they are different.

I suggest you use google maps streetview to work out precisely where the car was allegedly stopped, then switch to satellite or map view, then compare that image with the map(s) with the red lines. If the vehicle was stopped anywhere other than on the road marked with a red line, then it is outside the no stopping zone, even if it was only by a few centimetres.

As for a defence, yes you still have one. If the driver has not been identified then you have Not Relevant Land as a defence point since airport byelaws prevent a vehicle keeper from being liable.

In addition, if the signs could not be seen or read, then no contract can have been formed.

You are welcome to send me a message if you wish. It would help if you could show or explain exactly where the car was allegedly stopped.

Robot22

Hi group. I sent my appeal, see attached, but need some more assistance please as fruitcake is tied up with family. I have until 17th October to take this further which I want to do.
: 
16th September 2021

"Dear Sir/Madam

CN Reference- xxxx

I refer to your ‘notice to keeper’ dated 7th September 2021 which was sent to me as the registered keeper.

As can be seen by your CCTV cameras it was totally dark at 4.54 when my family visited the airport on the morning of 3/9/21.

No signage was visible as it was pitch black and therefore impossible to be aware of any restrictions. If any signage exists it was not visible at all and we contest your Parking Notice charge. I am the keeper of the vehicle and totally dispute this 'parking charge'. We deny any contractual agreement or liability and I will be making a complaint about your unfair and predatory conduct to my MP, and also to the DVLA ,due to the inappropriate provision of my personal details to your organisation.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving. We require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of any sign you contend was at the location including clear evidence that any signage was visible, legible and clearly lit on the night in question. We contest it was not.

Yours sincerely,"

I received their reply while I was away and predictably it is as follows:-

"We refer to your appeal in respect of the above Charge Notice (CN) received on 16/09/2021. Having considered the points you have raised and reviewed our records, we are unable to accept your appeal. Our main reason(s) for this decision are as follows: The signs at the entrance to Bristol Airport and the access roads within, clearly state "No Stopping", giving clear notice that the land is private property and that a Charge of £100 will be levied if vehicles do stop. 

The above detailed vehicle stopped in a zone where stopping is prohibited and the driver became liable to pay that Charge. In your appeal it is unclear who the driver was when your vehicle was seen to be stopped on the access road. You state that our Notice is not compliant with the Protection Of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 on the Notice issued to you; however we have not cited POFA 2012 nor stated that you are liable for the Charge as the vehicle keeper. It is important we highlight that we will continue to pursue this matter on the reasonable assumption that you were the driver of the vehicle on the date in question until information/evidence to the contrary is provided. A review of our CCTV evidence has confirmed that on the date in question, your vehicle stopped to drop off a passenger on the access road where restrictions apply. 

There are over 80 high profile signs advising drivers not to stop and warning that if a driver does stop, a charge of £100 is payable. The signs exceed recognised industry standards, with some as large as 2m by 1.1m (6ft 6in by 3ft 7in) which clearly state "No Stopping" alongside the nationally recognised Highway Code symbol for a Clearway (No Stopping). Furthermore, the signage on the approach road is reflective and positioned to face oncoming vehicles and the text size used is relative to the average approach speed of a vehicle in relation to the speed limit in force at that location. 

We note your comments that it was dark at the time you stopped and that you did not see any signs at the site. It is the motorist's sole responsibility to ensure that they are familiar with the Terms and Conditions displayed on signs on private land which they enter. We maintain that lighting at the time you were seen to stop was sufficient to ensure our signs were clearly visible; the evidence shows that there is overhead lighting illuminating the signs at the entrance and throughout the site. 

Furthermore your vehicle should have been using headlights at this time, which would have further illuminated the signs, those signs are reflective for that reason. Once the presence of the signs is revealed, it is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure that read the signs and comply with the Terms and Conditions displayed. A motorist who uses a vehicle on private land does so subject to the Terms and Conditions set out on the signs present. It is considered reasonable for businesses and landowners to seek redress if vehicles have stopped/parked in breach of the conditions which apply to vehicles using that private land. Parking Operators are permitted to obtain details of a vehicles registered keeper in order to pursue a lawful debt. In order to help ensure motorists are treated fairly when any charge is pursued, the DVLA will only provide vehicle keeper details to a parking operator who is a member of a DVLA Accredited Trade Association (ATA) and adheres to an enforceable code of practice. 

Vehicle Control Services Ltd are members of the Accredited Operator Scheme (AOS) operated by the International Parking Community (IPC) and as such follow the IPC Code of Practice. Please find images of the signage as requested. We have fully reviewed this case and we are satisfied that the Charge Notice was correctly issued. We are unable to accept the mitigating circumstances raised in your representations, your appeal is therefore rejected and the Charge will stand; photographic evidence which supports this can be viewed at www.myparkingcharge.co.uk. ". -------------

SO, I DO WANT to take this further and went to the airport today to obtain photos. I have read the NEWBIES thread but have some confusion as to how to proceed. Certainly the signs are not lit sufficiently to read. None of them have actual lights on them, some rely on having street lighting and some have street lights behind them all making them impossible to read late at night. I have photos of these both during the day and in the night.

There is now a larger sign as you enter the airport now but again not readable in the dark. I can argue the signs are not able to be read unless you stop and it is too late.

I am unclear about airport byelaws and not relevant land (some threads say they don't apply, some say they do) and no keeper liability and stopping isnt parking but am unsure how I should word my next communication and who to send it to as I understand not to send it to IAS..

Help please!!

Coupon-mad

No of course you do IAS as long as it is the free version (not the £15 'non standard' version for late Appeals that should not be touched).

There is even a recent case where the IAS adjudicator found that none of the photos showed whether the car was on a red line or not.  That is the stance to take - look at their photos and write an appeal in your OWN words (no template for IAS) that attaches evidence (their own photos) and says there is no evidence this was within the enforced area or that there were red lines under the car, or clear repeater signs on approach.

Robot22

Thanks Coupon-mad... will do.  Also should I avoid mentioning at this time specifics of 'airport byelaws' and 'not relevant land'  and 'no keeper liability' and 'stopping isnt parking', just focus on illegible signage? Is that good enough? 

Then just wait for IAS to throw out the appeal and go to the next step??
Many thanks again.

Coupon-mad

Yes and yes.

Unless you were not the driver and can evidence that, the IAS will assume you were so don't water down your appeal.  Surely if all the pics are dark then where's the red line evidence?

Robot22

OK, Hi again Coupon-Mad and others,
I have just had the adjudication from IAS, and, no surprise, they say that: 'I am satisfied that the Operator has proven their prima facie case. Whilst having some sympathy with the Appellant's circumstances, once liability has been established, only the Operator has the discretion to vary or cancel the parking charge based on mitigating circumstances. Accordingly this appeal is dismissed."

Just to remind you we stopped at the airport at 4.00 in the morning, it was totally dark and wet and we could not see the red lines or no-stopping signs until it was too late...Please can you confirm what the next step is now. I do have the operator's photos which are in the pitch black and in the wet and it is impossible to see any red lines on these. I included these photos with the appeal plus my photos of the site as I returned in dark to get samples of their 'illegible' signage.

Your thoughts please. Many thanks.

Redx

What makes you think there is a next step ?  I don't see one , apart from making plan A work

If VCS wish to issue va court claim pack from the CCBC in Northampton within the next 6 years , then defend it in court !

My thoughts are that the IAS rarely uphold appeals , so par for the course , so now it's the impasse stage

Umkomaas

'I am satisfied that the Operator has proven their prima facie case. Whilst having some sympathy with the Appellant's circumstances, once liability has been established, only the Operator has the discretion to vary or cancel the parking charge based on mitigating circumstances. Accordingly this appeal is dismissed."

Standard template paragraph seen in almost every rejected IAS appeal. Their sympathy is palpable ..... and overwhelming!  What a considerate organisation. 

Coupon-mad

I detest the fact the IAS use an obviously insincere template paragraph that makes people think the Adjudicator has written it themselves and really does have 'some sympathy' with the consumer.

Utter rubbish.   The truth is, most people futilely go through the motions of appeal with the IAS and have no hope of winning at that stage.   The sooner it is no longer a so called ADR option, the better.

Robot22

Hi All,
I have now had the final demand to pay which I am ignoring. Can I confirm the next action will be that I await a county court hearing date? Do I need t do anything beforehand? So far as mentioned I have appealed the Charge Notice (NTK) via IAS and received the accepted rejection.  
Thanks