Preparing a Defence for UK Park management

Daiapolon2021

Redx said:

Daiapolon2021 said:

KeithP said:

Daiapolon2021 said:

KeithP said:

What is the Issue Date on your County Court Claim Form?

Issue date was 9 August and did AoS before 28 August online thanks to this forum!  

With a Claim Issue Date of 9th August, and having filed an Acknowledgment of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Monday 13th September 2021 to file your Defence.

That's nearly two weeks away. Plenty of time to produce a Defence, but please don't leave it to the last minute.

To create a Defence, and then file a Defence by email, look at the second post in the NEWBIES thread.

Don't miss the deadline for filing a Defence.

thanks I am aware I have time I am just lost of what to add in section 3 of this template https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6108153/suggested-template-defence-to-adapt-for-all-parking-charge-cases-where-they-add-false-admin-costs/p1

Everybody is who comes here , that paragraph is bespoke in each case , which is why you must adapt paragraphs 2 and 3 !!

The good news is that coupon mad did the other 90% for you , just imagine if there was no template at all. !! Much worse for you 😁😁

Post your proposed draft of 2 & 3 below

Ensure that you have emailed a SAR to the DPO at UK CPM asap too

Coupon did indeed. Thanks Redx will do as you say. 

Fruitcake

Daiapolon2021 said:

Was the NTK PoFa compliant? If not, has the driver been outed?

Thanks Fruitcake! 

I need to specify also car is leased to me from the Company I work for. I am scouring through the forum but can definitely use some help.


Was the NTK PoFa compliant? If not, has the driver been outed? it is UKCPM and I was the driver 

That doesn't answer either of my questions.
I didn't ask who was driving, I asked if anyone had blabbed to the PPC about who was driving, and thus threw away a valuable appeal/defence point, especially when we have yet to see a PPC comply with the PoFA 2012 where a hire/lease car is concerned.

Parking companies read this forum, so telling the world who was driving is not a good idea

Did the hire/lease Co just pass the NTK to the hirer/day to day keeper, or did they correctly transfer liability to the hirer/lessee by passing the hirer/lessee details to the PPC?
Did the hirer/lessee receive a NTH?

Daiapolon2021

Fruitcake said:

Daiapolon2021 said:

Was the NTK PoFa compliant? If not, has the driver been outed?

Thanks Fruitcake! 

I need to specify also car is leased to me from the Company I work for. I am scouring through the forum but can definitely use some help.


Was the NTK PoFa compliant? If not, has the driver been outed? it is UKCPM and I was the driver 

That doesn't answer either of my questions.
I didn't ask who was driving, I asked if anyone had blabbed to the PPC about who was driving, and thus threw away a valuable appeal/defence point, especially when we have yet to see a PPC comply with the PoFA 2012 where a hire/lease car is concerned.

Parking companies read this forum, so telling the world who was driving is not a good idea

Did the hire/lease Co just pass the NTK to the hirer/day to day keeper, or did they correctly transfer liability to the hirer/lessee by passing the hirer/lessee details to the PPC?
Did the hirer/lessee receive a NTH?

the hirer received a 'formal demand' not sure if it qualifies as NTH. In that the formal demand, the PPC did not know who the driver was so the answer to your first question is no. The PPC said they 'requested details from DVLA as the registered keeper of the vehicle'. I am trying to recall but cannot find communication from the Lease co passing on info to lessee so it might seem they went to the lessee directly (although normally in these circumstances the lease co passes the details to the PPC). Also by reviewing the 'formal demand' it seems the parking was part of a residential area so there was no way to 'pay' for the parking. In fact they just wrote the lessee was 'not displaying a valid permit'.

Let me know if you need any more info. I appreciate the help.

Fruitcake

Daiapolon2021 said:

Fruitcake said:

Daiapolon2021 said:

Was the NTK PoFa compliant? If not, has the driver been outed?

Thanks Fruitcake! 

I need to specify also car is leased to me from the Company I work for. I am scouring through the forum but can definitely use some help.


Was the NTK PoFa compliant? If not, has the driver been outed? it is UKCPM and I was the driver 

That doesn't answer either of my questions.
I didn't ask who was driving, I asked if anyone had blabbed to the PPC about who was driving, and thus threw away a valuable appeal/defence point, especially when we have yet to see a PPC comply with the PoFA 2012 where a hire/lease car is concerned.

Parking companies read this forum, so telling the world who was driving is not a good idea

Did the hire/lease Co just pass the NTK to the hirer/day to day keeper, or did they correctly transfer liability to the hirer/lessee by passing the hirer/lessee details to the PPC?
Did the hirer/lessee receive a NTH?

the hirer received a 'formal demand' not sure if it qualifies as NTH. In that the formal demand, the PPC did not know who the driver was so the answer to your first question is no. The PPC said they 'requested details from DVLA as the registered keeper of the vehicle'. I am trying to recall but cannot find communication from the Lease co passing on info to lessee so it might seem they went to the lessee directly (although normally in these circumstances the lease co passes the details to the PPC). Also by reviewing the 'formal demand' it seems the parking was part of a residential area so there was no way to 'pay' for the parking. In fact they just wrote the lessee was 'not displaying a valid permit'.

Let me know if you need any more info. I appreciate the help.

The PPC can only obtain registered keeper details from the DVLA. In your case the data given would have been that of the hire/lease company.

You need to determine what information the hire/lease company gave to the PPC about the hirer lessee. The hire/lease company cannot have given the driver's details unless a representative of the company was actually present at the time of the alleged event. They cannot possibly have known who was driving at the time if they were not present. 
You can ask them nicely what they told the PPC, or you can send them a SAR, or you can do both.

In order to hold you, the hirer/lessee liable, the PPC should have sent you a Notice to Hirer that complied with the Schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012 paragraph 14 by including copies of documents defined in para 13 of Schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012.

If anyone else other than the hirer/lessee could have been driving, then you should say so.
Please note that I am insured to drive your hire/lease car, so it could have been me, or it could have been any of the other 30 odd million people insured to drive in the UK.
You need the PPC to prove it was the hirer/lessee who was driving, because I am quite sure they will not have complied with the strict requirements of the PoFA with regards to hire/lease cars.

Daiapolon2021

Fruitcake said:

Daiapolon2021 said:

Fruitcake said:

Daiapolon2021 said:

Was the NTK PoFa compliant? If not, has the driver been outed?

Thanks Fruitcake! 

I need to specify also car is leased to me from the Company I work for. I am scouring through the forum but can definitely use some help.


Was the NTK PoFa compliant? If not, has the driver been outed? it is UKCPM and I was the driver 

That doesn't answer either of my questions.
I didn't ask who was driving, I asked if anyone had blabbed to the PPC about who was driving, and thus threw away a valuable appeal/defence point, especially when we have yet to see a PPC comply with the PoFA 2012 where a hire/lease car is concerned.

Parking companies read this forum, so telling the world who was driving is not a good idea

Did the hire/lease Co just pass the NTK to the hirer/day to day keeper, or did they correctly transfer liability to the hirer/lessee by passing the hirer/lessee details to the PPC?
Did the hirer/lessee receive a NTH?

the hirer received a 'formal demand' not sure if it qualifies as NTH. In that the formal demand, the PPC did not know who the driver was so the answer to your first question is no. The PPC said they 'requested details from DVLA as the registered keeper of the vehicle'. I am trying to recall but cannot find communication from the Lease co passing on info to lessee so it might seem they went to the lessee directly (although normally in these circumstances the lease co passes the details to the PPC). Also by reviewing the 'formal demand' it seems the parking was part of a residential area so there was no way to 'pay' for the parking. In fact they just wrote the lessee was 'not displaying a valid permit'.

Let me know if you need any more info. I appreciate the help.

The PPC can only obtain registered keeper details from the DVLA. In your case the data given would have been that of the hire/lease company.

You need to determine what information the hire/lease company gave to the PPC about the hirer lessee. The hire/lease company cannot have given the driver's details unless a representative of the company was actually present at the time of the alleged event. They cannot possibly have known who was driving at the time if they were not present. 
You can ask them nicely what they told the PPC, or you can send them a SAR, or you can do both.

In order to hold you, the hirer/lessee liable, the PPC should have sent you a Notice to Hirer that complied with the Schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012 paragraph 14 by including copies of documents defined in para 13 of Schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012.

If anyone else other than the hirer/lessee could have been driving, then you should say so.
Please note that I am insured to drive your hire/lease car, so it could have been me, or it could have been any of the other 30 odd million people insured to drive in the UK.
You need the PPC to prove it was the hirer/lessee who was driving, because I am quite sure they will not have complied with the strict requirements of the PoFA with regards to hire/lease cars.

thank you @Fruitcake. I am preparing the SAR to send to the DPO of the PPC. What if the DPO replies after the date I need to file my defence? How does it impact the defence I need to send in 2 weeks? I understand they have a month to do reply to me? Thanks for all the help to all. Much appreciated. Great forum. 

Coupon-mad

You don't need a SAR reply to do the defence.

Fruitcake

Assume you won't receive the reply to the SAR before you need to submit your defence.

You only need to modify two paragraphs of the defence template. 

The most important thing is to determine what you will say to the judge if they ask if you were driving. They may, they may not, but you must give a truthful answer. These can only be,
It was me
It was someone else, (who you are not legally required to name).
I don't remember (because it was an unremarkable day some time ago, and other people have use of the vehicle).

That will determine what you put in your para 2 where you deny liability.

It will also determine whether you use non PoFA compliance as a defence point in para 3.

Most other points such as inadequate signage and no landowner authority are already covered.

Daiapolon2021

ok thanks to both. I will write down my defence and would appreciate any comments as you have done so far. Many thanks to all. Very impressed by how helpful you all are.

Daiapolon2021

Hi All I am working on my defence but here is my SAR in the meantime. Would appreciate any comments. I have modified the template on Newbies forum, as the parking fine was not in an area where you could pay to park but only where you were supposed to 'display a valid permit' that was not possible to acquire/buy in any way. As a matter of fact, if it is not possible to park in a certain area then that should be clearly stated (guess will add to my defence). 

To: [DPO email of PPC] 

Email Subject: Subject access request (Data Protection Act 2018 / General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR))

[Name]

[Phone]

[Surname]

Dear Sir or Madam, 

This is [Name], currently living in [Address] and previously living in [Address] where you first and recently communicated with me.

Please supply the data about me that I am entitled to under data protection law relating to myself including:

- ALL photos taken

- all letters/emails sent and received, including any appeal correspondence earlier

- all data held, all evidence you will rely on, and a full copy of the PCN, NTK

- and a list of all PCNs outstanding against me, I remind you that any claim must be for all PCNs, not several separate claims.

If you need any more data from me to confirm my identity, please let me know as soon as possible. It may be helpful for you to know that data protection law requires you to respond to a request for data within one calendar month.

If you need advice on dealing with this request, the Information Commissioner’s Office can assist you. Its website is ico.org.uk or it can be contacted on 0303 123 1113.

Yours faithfully,

[Name]

Le_Kirk

I wouldn't offer to send any more from you to confirm your identity.  They only require a scan of your V5C (providing it has your current address) and maybe anything they have sent to you to confirm it is your address.  Offering them a chance to delay matters is not a good idea.