Shoplifting minors

ItsComingRome

Monsternextdoor said:

ItsComingRome said:

Monsternextdoor said:

Only the police can search them, So if the shop has searched them forcible they are at fault, They can ask then to open there bags etc but it has to be done in front of the police. 

It is not down to the shop to question them, they have absolutely no need to they only need to detain them until the police come, nor is it down to them to berate them. 

The shop has massively overstepped and personally I would complain, The stealing is not on make that clear but them detaining, searching and repeated questioning is massively overstepping. 

Who searched them ? In front of who ? Was your daughter searched by a female ? Did they pat her down ? Who questioned them ? Why question them repeatedly ? At any point were they split up ? Upon detaining them did they call you ?

You need to ask these questions to them and the shop staff as they sound like they need training.

Also this is a good book for you to get https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1787752844?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1

Let me state that stealing is not on, But it sounds that there handling leaves to many questions that need to be answered.

It's nonsense to suggest only the Police can search children, a quick Google search shows results about them being searched by headteachers without consent.

Can you point to a law which prohibits members of the public performing pat down searches?(I'm not saying it doesn't exist but given Google only points to rules for certain professions it seems not.)

Worked in retail,housing and with kids with special needs for over 20 years and I am a mother of an ASD child, The police are the only ones with stop and search powers, Also If the did not consent to the search it is classed as assault. 

Same with bag searches you can refuse to let them look in your bag when the alarm goes off, The have absolutely no right at all to coerce or forcibly make you open the bag all they can legally do is detain you till the police are called. 

Head teachers can ask them to open their bags and pockets but again cannot forcibly make them do so same rules apply.

Also are all members of the public taught how to do a pat down, how to explain it, where to touch and how much pressure they are to apply ? No, For all we no you have a minor who has been searched and patted down by a lone male with no chaperone, How would a child know that she has been searched correctly and touched with the minimum of fuss.

It's not stop and search though, it's a citizens arrest.

user1977

ItsComingRome said:

user1977 said:

ItsComingRome said:

Monsternextdoor said:

Only the police can search them, So if the shop has searched them forcible they are at fault, They can ask then to open there bags etc but it has to be done in front of the police. 

It is not down to the shop to question them, they have absolutely no need to they only need to detain them until the police come, nor is it down to them to berate them. 

The shop has massively overstepped and personally I would complain, The stealing is not on make that clear but them detaining, searching and repeated questioning is massively overstepping. 

Who searched them ? In front of who ? Was your daughter searched by a female ? Did they pat her down ? Who questioned them ? Why question them repeatedly ? At any point were they split up ? Upon detaining them did they call you ?

You need to ask these questions to them and the shop staff as they sound like they need training.

Also this is a good book for you to get https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1787752844?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1

Let me state that stealing is not on, But it sounds that there handling leaves to many questions that need to be answered.

Can you point to a law which prohibits members of the public performing pat down searches?(I'm not saying it doesn't exist but given Google only points to rules for certain professions it seems not.)

There's no general right for us to go around frisking each other. Why would there be? 

There doesn't need to be.

They were the suspects of a crime being detained.  Clearly "normal" rules don't apply.

The Police can't just go around frisking people either, so what's your point?

The point is that there's a statutory regime setting out the rights which police officers have to carry out searches. And none for you or me.

Monsternextdoor

Deleted_User said:

 They were both searched with only 1 adult (the one doing the search) present. Questions included names, dates of births, addresses, phone numbers, parents names, what parents did for work, whether they had toys at home, if they had any other siblings, where they went to school.

For search there needs to be a witness, How do you know what they found on them was correct ? 

They don't to know any of this info, That's for the police to worry about.

Now they know where they go to school, addresses, names and work details- These have absolutely no bearing on what has happened, But now they know personal details. 

Nah Complain, The way its been handled stinks. 

Also you did know that when performing a citizen's arrest, The arresting person can be held liable for any harm or detriment to the person committing the offence.

http://modgov.sefton.gov.uk/moderngov/documents/s38286/Citizen+Power+of+arrest.pdf

ItsComingRome

Deleted_User said:

Hi Aylesbury, as soon as the police left, I marched them down there to apologise. Its only a few hundred yards from my house!!! (Which is another annoying thing). They both know they've done wrong and have been banned from a list of shops owned by the same people for the next 12 months - which is fair enough. I was just struggling with the detainment and questioning issue, although I do understand it, I thought there'd be something In place for vulnerable people. The other thing I've been thinking is maybe its my fault letting them go out without adult supervision.

It's not your fault for not supervising them, they're going to have to be unsupervised eventually and mid-ish teens is no worse than any other time.

Don't not trust them forever, they've made a mistake, but the longer you keep them on a leash, the worse they be when you let them off.

Monsternextdoor

@Deleted_User

Speak to the kids tomorrow, Remind them that what's done is done and it's now in the past. They can't be punished twice.

Draw a line under it and call it done, It's a vertical learning curve and its been a bit of a spiked learning curve today. 

But It's not because you didn't go with them to supervise, They are kids and kids have these weird and wacky ideas to do these things. If we had a £1 for every crazy thought that went thru a kids head we would all be a lot richer.

Go give him a cuddle or hold his hand, right now he is scared and embarrassed and he needs the reassurance it will be ok in the morning. 

Laz123

I really can't believe some of the negative contributions here, it beggars belief.

Surely the best course of action would have been to call the parents to attend. End of.

billy2shots

I think you need to take a step back. 

Did the police tell you that the shop conducted a physical search or is it the account of 2 young kids (one with autism) who are probably upset, embarrassed, guilty and now  possibly trying to deflect blame. 

The thread has gone off on a tangent with people suggesting illegal physical body searches and collecting personal information for some benefit of the shop. 

A large hangup seems to be how someone could act this way towards your autistic son and the upset it has caused him. 

Rewind a bit. You need to decide if you are giving him this freedom and if he can cope with what that brings or not. You can not expect people in the community to be aware of his autism and treat him differently from the next child. 

He is 14 (presumably looks his age) and was stealing from a shop. The shopkeeper treated him like a 14 year old stealing from a shop. The last 10 years we have had a massive push in the autistic, learning disabilities, mental health world in anti discrimination and equality.

 We can't strive for equality when it suits but want someone treated differently when it benefits us or our loved ones. 

You haven't mentioned anything about your son's autism hindering him from understanding right from wrong so presumably he knew what he was doing was wrong?

You mentioned him trying to present a card to the shop but let's be honest how feasible is that. It's certainly not a get out of jail free card. Can he verbalise his disability or his sister explain? Again, a shopkeeper would probably see this as an excuse in the heat of the moment. 

Now the decision on what happens going forward is based on - 

- Does your son know right from wrong

- Do you and he accept that if he breaks the law he will be treated as an equal

If he doesn't know right from wrong or you are not happy for him to be treated like any other 14 year old then you have bigger decisions to make regarding his independence. 

bris

Bottom line they were a couple of thieves who got caught, why look for excuses and try to defend them?

Cant believe some of the replies on here, shop has the right to detain them until the police arrive, everything else is just speculation.

The security who detained them don't know what medical conditions they have, nor do they need to.

maisie_cat

If you take the view that the shop should have treated them a special case you will send a message to your children that they can get away with shoplifting by playing the vulnerability/age card.
The children were not harmed by anything other than the shame of getting caught and I assume the shame of actually shoplifting.
Let that be a lesson, hope that it scares them straight, my niece was detained and taken to a police station at 14, and it scared her enough to never do anything wrong again.

dil1976

bris said:

Bottom line they were a couple of thieves who got caught, why look for excuses and try to defend them?

Cant believe some of the replies on here, shop has the right to detain them until the police arrive, everything else is just speculation.

The security who detained them don't know what medical conditions they have, nor do they need to.

Security should ensure as soon as possible any medical condition's as once they detain them they have a duty of care towards them until the police arrive.