Shoplifting minors

lisyloo

You should complain against any wrong doing of course, but I am wondering if they are old/assertive enough to be out on their own?

theoretica

Deleted_User said:

I'm just surprised there are no guidelines that protect all minors in these situations which would cover all vulnerable people and children alike.

I wonder if it is actually, to some extent, the other way round.  The police want to see child shoplifters and check that they aren't in need of social services input when they would not have the resources to attend to a similar incident with someone who was not vulnerable in the same way.

ItsComingRome

Deleted_User said:

Like I said above, I'm not trying to defend their actions. And I've not said anything negative about what the shop has done in front of them. As far as they're concerned, everything done was by the book and was a result of their actions. I also don't expect them to be a special case or for extra allowances for his special needs (as the shop wouldn't have known about them). I'm just surprised there are no guidelines that protect all minors in these situations which would cover all vulnerable people and children alike.

Protect them from what though? There's no indication the children were strip searched with only one person present nor that they were grilled Gitmo-style.

At worst, any confession would be inadmissible in court.

deannagone

I do understand your concerns.  I have a 24 year old and  a 15 year old with autism. The 15 year old shoplifted (helped himself to biscuits out of a packet in the shop WHILE I was in a different part of the shop when he was a lot younger) and I told him off properly.  He never did it again, I did as you have done, made him apologise to the shop staff etc, explained why it was wrong, this could never happen again but also made it clear I loved him.

BUT I also understand your concerns about care taken because of his special needs.  For the shop staff, they just saw two teens, assumed they could be people who do this frequently (they were searching for more stolen goods amongst other things) and they were just a number.  

I would write to the shop, explain you understand the seriousness of what your children did, but would ask them to look at their search procedures with young people, especially ones who may have special needs.  They will probably say 'we aren't mental health professionals so how would we assess this (heard this so many times)?  I would say that before questioning and searches are done, the shop staff should consider calling parents or another legally responsible adult.  I'd be uneasy about this being done as well.  If they were waiting for police to turn up, they should have been waiting for a legally responsible adult to turn up as well.  No searches should have taken place before this occurred.  I'd consider this 'safe procedure' for all concerned with the way the world is nowadays and the way accusations of inappropriate contact can be made.. 

As for right now, I'd suggest giving your children time to talk about what happened, be firm about inappropriateness of the actions that led to this procedure but allow them to talk any resultant anxieties through.  I do know that anxieties like this can become quite firmly routed, so they do need to talk about it.  For a while, I'd go with them while their confidence in 'rules' builds up.  My older son has a problem with understanding consequences too (even though he's 24).  He does understand right and wrong of course, but there are some very clear problems with consequences for actions that are 'wrong'. 

Both children also need to know that you still love them, you'd be surprised how quickly that concept can be shaken up, particularly with autism in the mix (which may be affecting their sense of self worth, I've had a lot of problems with this).  Not demonstrating approval of what they have done, but that you still love them even when they have done wrong.  So far, the fact that they have done wrong has been concentrated on, which is understandable, but things can get out of balance.  My older son can still remember the time I went mad at him when he forged a letter to give him a day off school and got a teacher to sign it (the letter said the school was closing that day).  The word Fraud was clearly explained lol.

I am in no way condoning what they have done.  

I am an adult with autism, and I have a lot of anxieties about going out.  I have had a couple of shops ask to see what was in my bag, each time it made it more difficult to go out even for essential supplies. I hadn't done anything wrong, but it did affect me.  The idea that 'you haven't shoplifted so why is it so difficult to show your bag to someone' doesn't cover the shame and unexpectedness of being treated like someone who is a shoplifter in the open when someone questions you about what you have in your bag. I also find it very difficult to talk when the conversation is challenging, and things have gone wrong for me because of this. Getting upset in public is also shaming and difficult to deal with, which has happened to me. Of course, finding receipts is a nightmare (I have blank moments when getting overwhelmed which shopping on its own can do to me). It doesn't mean I am brainless, it just means i have some holes in my brain lolol.

Monsternextdoor

Deleted_User said:

Like I said above, I'm not trying to defend their actions. And I've not said anything negative about what the shop has done in front of them. As far as they're concerned, everything done was by the book and was a result of their actions. I also don't expect them to be a special case or for extra allowances for his special needs (as the shop wouldn't have known about them). I'm just surprised there are no guidelines that protect all minors in these situations which would cover all vulnerable people and children alike.

There is for the police, just not for business owners. 

Realistically you should have been called, The police did the right thing by bringing them home they are not at fault. The shop thinks its behaved correctly but unfortunately has not.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

bris said:

Bottom line they were a couple of thieves who got caught, why look for excuses and try to defend them?

Cant believe some of the replies on here, shop has the right to detain them until the police arrive, everything else is just speculation.

The security who detained them don't know what medical conditions they have, nor do they need to.

The joys of living in a democratic society is that those who do wrong are judged by a process set out in law rather than by just anyone to ensure all are treated fairly. At last that is the theory. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Monsternextdoor said:

"The Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984:

24A Arrest without warrant: other persons

(1) A person other than a constable may arrest without a warrant— (a) anyone who is in the act of committing an indictable offence; (b) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be committing an indictable offence.

(2) Where an indictable offence has been committed, a person other than a constable may arrest without a warrant— (a) anyone who is guilty of the offence; (b) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of it.

 (3) But the power of summary arrest conferred by subsection (1) or (2) is exercisable only if— (a) the person making the arrest has reasonable grounds for believing that for any of the reasons mentioned in subsection (4) it is necessary to arrest the person in question; and (b ) it appears to the person making the arrest that it is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make it instead.

(4) The reasons are to prevent the person in question— (a) causing physical injury to himself or any other person; (b) suffering physical injury; (c) causing loss of or damage to property; or (d) making off before a constable can assume responsibility for him.”


Nothing there about searching anyone and that is the law pertaining to a citizen's arrest. 

Out of interest a look on google suggests that low value shoplifting is summary only offence rather than an indictable offence so can you still detain someone who isn't committing an indictable offence?

Undervalued

bris said:

Bottom line they were a couple of thieves who got caught, why look for excuses and try to defend them?

Cant believe some of the replies on here, shop has the right to detain them until the police arrive, everything else is just speculation.

The security who detained them don't know what medical conditions they have, nor do they need to.

IF (and I repeat, if) the shop acted in any way unlawfully then these minors have every right to be defended against that.

Two wrongs never make a right.

Yes, the shop have the right to detain somebody they reasonably believe has committed an arrestable criminal offence until such time as a constable can take charge of them. However that is where their right begins and ends.

If they exercise that right without a reasonable belief the shop staff responsible commit an offence. Also, even if their belief was reasonable the moment they detain somebody they become responsible for their welfare.

"The security" of course have no more powers than you or me regardless of job title, uniform or self importance!

Manxman_in_exile

Deleted_User said:

...but they were held for over an hour in a locked room and questioned repeatedly by 4 different people. My autistic son has been crying since 4pm when he got home (I know the stealing is the route cause). Both were also searched by staff before the police turned up. I'm not trying to excuse what they've done, ..., im just surprised that shop security might have this level of power over minors and vulnerable people.

I'm really reluctant to ask, but... how do you know all this?  Did the police tell you or have staff at the shop in question told you?  Or have your two children told you?

Don't get me wrong, if the staff at the shop have behaved in the way you have described then they've been completely out of order - but how certain can you be that what you have been told is 100% accurate?

By all means take it up with the shop concerned and ask them what procedures they follow in this sort of case where minors are suspected of pilfering - but you might want to be pretty certain that you know everything that happened before you do so.  Who knows - if you do raise it with the shop they might find it helpful - the owner may not know what their staff have been doing - if they've done what you think they have.

You may also want to consider what sort of relationship you currently have with this shop and what sort of relationship you want going forward...


(What sort of shop is it?  A small village shop or a city department store or something else?)

Manxman_in_exile

billy2shots said:

I think you need to take a step back. 

... [edited to reduce quote length]...

If he doesn't know right from wrong or you are not happy for him to be treated like any other 14 year old then you have bigger decisions to make regarding his independence. 

I agree with all the above quote.