Paypal chargeback fine despite having receipt. Now debt collectors are involved!

elsien

gpurdey92 said:

ItsComingRome said:

gpurdey92 said:

ItsComingRome said:

gpurdey92 said:

Hello everyone,

I am writing to you because my brother has had an issue with Paypal and I believe it is a scam. He sold a product (bitcoin) to someone and has a receipt for this. The buyer then claimed the item had not arrived and issued a charge back (effectively Paypals term for their money back). Paypal then opened a case which was open for 7 days and in this time my brother had no internet connection so by the time he realised the situation Paypal refunded the money to the person then simply claimed that they wouldn't re-open the case despite the fact he had a receipt. They are acting as if there terms and conditions trump the actual law here, we have spoken to them but they just say unfortunately they don't re-open cases. They have now passed the bill onto a debt collection company. They are now threatening to seize assets, but we have a receipt!?! What can I do in this situation?

Your beef is with the buyer.  PayPal's terms and conditions allow them to pull the money back if you don't have "compelling evidence" that the intangible good or service was delivered.  A receipt is hardly compelling evidence, anyone can write a receipt saying whatever they want.

You need to take the buyer to court to get your money back.  I suspect, however, this is a hacked account so you're unlikely to get anywhere with it.

In future, don't sell intangible goods via PayPal.  Especially when there are reputable crypto exchanges that perform the same service with essentially zero risk.

Hi,

Thanks for the responce.

The goods were sold via a  and the payment was through Paypal, no different to buying off eBay and using Paypal then someone trying to get a refund via Paypal. The receipt is from the website, surely this is compelling evidence? Otherwise a receipt would never be any use in any situation because people would be accused of fabricating them.

What do you mean a hacked account? I am really unsure as to why the issue is with the buyer, it is Paypal who have messed up by giving a refund too hastily. My point is really if I have solid evidence that the buyer received the goods why do Paypal's T and C's of a 7 day appeal period trump the law?

You don't have solid evidence, as far as PayPal are concerned, that this transaction took place. If you did they wouldn't have refunded the buyer.

You're at the mercy of PayPal's T&C's when it comes to refunds.  If you want to exercise your legal rights it is against the buyer who now has both the money and the crypto.

They refunded the buyer due to the 7 day issue - nothing to do with the lack of evidence as it was never presented. We want to present it but they are saying their T & C's mean that we have missed this opportunity. Let me rephrase my question, if we refuse to pay the £800 what do you think may happen? Surely they need to actually prosecute us and then in a court of law we will either have to pay or not? They can't be the judge, jury and executioner.

Debt collectors have no legal enforcement powers, although they do put a lot of pressure on by exaggerating their remit and they are quite fond of letters threatening enforcement action. Your brother is quite within his rights to tell them to do one, and he'll see them in court, if that is a chance that he wants to take.

They would then need to make a small claims court claim against him. He will have the opportunity to put his side of things. If he loses and he pays within 30 days then it is not recorded as a CCJ on his credit history. 

Your brother may find it helpful to read this.

Bailiffs & Debt Collectors. The Difference? StepChange

macman

Nobody is going to 'prosecute' you: this is a civil matter, not criminal. But they can certainly take an action against you via the county court, and if you lose you will get a CCJ. If you don't pay then, they can commence recovery action: bailiffs, seizure of goods, a charge on your property, attachment of earnings order etc. No one can say what they might or might not so.

gpurdey92

ItsComingRome said:

gpurdey92 said:

ItsComingRome said:

gpurdey92 said:

ItsComingRome said:

gpurdey92 said:

Hello everyone,

I am writing to you because my brother has had an issue with Paypal and I believe it is a scam. He sold a product (bitcoin) to someone and has a receipt for this. The buyer then claimed the item had not arrived and issued a charge back (effectively Paypals term for their money back). Paypal then opened a case which was open for 7 days and in this time my brother had no internet connection so by the time he realised the situation Paypal refunded the money to the person then simply claimed that they wouldn't re-open the case despite the fact he had a receipt. They are acting as if there terms and conditions trump the actual law here, we have spoken to them but they just say unfortunately they don't re-open cases. They have now passed the bill onto a debt collection company. They are now threatening to seize assets, but we have a receipt!?! What can I do in this situation?

Your beef is with the buyer.  PayPal's terms and conditions allow them to pull the money back if you don't have "compelling evidence" that the intangible good or service was delivered.  A receipt is hardly compelling evidence, anyone can write a receipt saying whatever they want.

You need to take the buyer to court to get your money back.  I suspect, however, this is a hacked account so you're unlikely to get anywhere with it.

In future, don't sell intangible goods via PayPal.  Especially when there are reputable crypto exchanges that perform the same service with essentially zero risk.

Hi,

Thanks for the responce.

The goods were sold via a  and the payment was through Paypal, no different to buying off eBay and using Paypal then someone trying to get a refund via Paypal. The receipt is from the website, surely this is compelling evidence? Otherwise a receipt would never be any use in any situation because people would be accused of fabricating them.

What do you mean a hacked account? I am really unsure as to why the issue is with the buyer, it is Paypal who have messed up by giving a refund too hastily. My point is really if I have solid evidence that the buyer received the goods why do Paypal's T and C's of a 7 day appeal period trump the law?

You don't have solid evidence, as far as PayPal are concerned, that this transaction took place. If you did they wouldn't have refunded the buyer.

You're at the mercy of PayPal's T&C's when it comes to refunds.  If you want to exercise your legal rights it is against the buyer who now has both the money and the crypto.

They refunded the buyer due to the 7 day issue - nothing to do with the lack of evidence as it was never presented. We want to present it but they are saying their T & C's mean that we have missed this opportunity. Let me rephrase my question, if we refuse to pay the £800 what do you think may happen? Surely they need to actually prosecute us and then in a court of law we will either have to pay or not? They can't be the judge, jury and executioner.

If you don't pay up the worst-case scenario is you being taken to court, losing and potentially having bailiffs coming around, or garnish wages etc.  To be clear those are absolute worst-case scenarios.

Nobody can say with any certainty whether the DCA that chases this/buys the debt will just eventually let it slide or whether they'll take it further, you're just going to have to roll the dice on that.

Thanks. The money is not a huge issue it is more the principle. Anyway thanks for the advise.

Jenni_D

ItsComingRome said:

Nobody can say with any certainty whether the DCA that chases this/buys the debt will just eventually let it slide or whether they'll take it further, you're just going to have to roll the dice on that.

I can say with certainty that unless the OP's brother has received a Notice of Debt Assignment from Paypal then the debt collector is merely that - another company that Paypal have asked to chase the alleged debt.

gpurdey92

macman said:

Nobody is going to 'prosecute' you: this is a civil matter, not criminal. But they can certainly take an action against you via the county court, and if you lose you will get a CCJ. If you don't pay then, they can commence recovery action: bailiffs, seizure of goods, a charge on your property, attachment of earnings order etc. No one can say what they might or might not so.

Action via the court is what I meant, sorry. ok thanks for the advise.

ItsComingRome

Jenni_D said:

ItsComingRome said:

Nobody can say with any certainty whether the DCA that chases this/buys the debt will just eventually let it slide or whether they'll take it further, you're just going to have to roll the dice on that.

I can say with certainty that unless the OP's brother has received a Notice of Debt Assignment from Paypal then the debt collector is merely that - another company that Paypal have asked to chase the alleged debt.

I never said otherwise.  In fact, I specifically said chases this/buys this.

Jenni_D

But you did also say "buys this".  

There's no way for a DCA to be able to chase this debt through court unless it is assigned, and the OP's brother would (have to) be informed it was assigned.

ItsComingRome

Jenni_D said:

But you did also say "buys this".  

There's no way for a DCA to be able to chase this debt through court unless it is assigned, and the OP's brother would (have to) be informed it was assigned.

Yes, buys being future tense.  It may not be sold now, doesn't mean it won't be in future.

born_again

How can you not receive a bit coin?

ItsComingRome

born_again said:

How can you not receive a bit coin?

It was never sent?