Is this boiler flue positioned incorrectly? Engineer won’t issue landlord certificate

dil1976

Money_Grabber13579 said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

This shows it better https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/downloads/gas-hoziontal-and-vertical-flue-terminal-positioning.pdf

Its 25mm minimum below the eaves as long as the boiler flue is extended beyond the line of the gutter - yours isn't, so needs to be either 200mm below eaves or extended out past the gutter.

Should also be minimum 300mm from the corner, which yours isn't. 

Definitely not installed correctly. 

I can't agree....why should it be 300 from a corner?
You don't need to extend beyond the eaves. That is fine!
Youre using a Worcester manual for a Baxi!

Those are the flue requirements accordingly to the BS, not manufacturer specific. Some manufacturers are not particularly clear in their explanation of the requirements, and in some cases unfortunately incorrect.

You could also look up the same diagram in Part J of the Building Regulations, it still says 300mm minimum from a corner (p50). That hasn't changed since 2005.

As already stated, MI'S superceed anything.

No they don't - they may well set requirements in additional to Bldg Regs, but they don't supersede them.

Here's a random Baxi install manual I had on a recent project https://www.baxi.co.uk/our-boilers/combi-boilers/-/media/websites/baxiuk/files/product-literature/baxi-600-combi/baxi_600_combi_installation_and_service_manual.pdf?la=en&hash=59F4684A32860F2FCAB0F51E652F9FD09EFC064D

See p33 - the flue is close to the downpipe so the multiple 25mm minimum distances can't be applied, see note 2. So 300mm from internal corner, and 200mm below eaves.

Pretty clear to me. You can always go back to BS 5440 for detail - don't blindly trust manufacturers info, they get it wrong sometimes.

Yes they absolutely do!!! That is what an engineer works to, and we are told in all our exams that is the case! Are you an engineer? If you are then you simply must KNOW that is the case! 
Stop looking at all other ot random manuals that suit your arguments, look at the one for this boiler. What does it say? I agree the caveats are the same and in think looking at those pucs theyre above 25mm so in my opinion It is installed to MI's. Therefore it's absolutely fine. 
BS do not in anyway get in the way of MI's. 

I’m not an engineer (gas or otherwise) and so I’m fully prepared to accept that I don’t know what I’m talking about here. However, as a lay person, I would be skeptical of this argument as my understanding of government safety standards were that they provided a minimum standard in relation to whatever they apply to.  If the instructions breach the minimum standards, I’d have thought that the minimum standard should be applied but if they exceed the minimum standard, the manufacturers instructions should be used.

But as I say, that’s a lay persons view… 

What you have to remember is that the boiler will only meet BS if installed correctly which is according to the MIs, which would of also been test to BS so MIs will always supercede them as the manufacturer will be the one taking the flack if something goes wrong and it ends up in court.

ComicGeek

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

This shows it better https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/downloads/gas-hoziontal-and-vertical-flue-terminal-positioning.pdf

Its 25mm minimum below the eaves as long as the boiler flue is extended beyond the line of the gutter - yours isn't, so needs to be either 200mm below eaves or extended out past the gutter.

Should also be minimum 300mm from the corner, which yours isn't. 

Definitely not installed correctly. 

I can't agree....why should it be 300 from a corner?
You don't need to extend beyond the eaves. That is fine!
Youre using a Worcester manual for a Baxi!

Those are the flue requirements accordingly to the BS, not manufacturer specific. Some manufacturers are not particularly clear in their explanation of the requirements, and in some cases unfortunately incorrect.

You could also look up the same diagram in Part J of the Building Regulations, it still says 300mm minimum from a corner (p50). That hasn't changed since 2005.

As already stated, MI'S superceed anything.

No they don't - they may well set requirements in additional to Bldg Regs, but they don't supersede them.

Here's a random Baxi install manual I had on a recent project https://www.baxi.co.uk/our-boilers/combi-boilers/-/media/websites/baxiuk/files/product-literature/baxi-600-combi/baxi_600_combi_installation_and_service_manual.pdf?la=en&hash=59F4684A32860F2FCAB0F51E652F9FD09EFC064D

See p33 - the flue is close to the downpipe so the multiple 25mm minimum distances can't be applied, see note 2. So 300mm from internal corner, and 200mm below eaves.

Pretty clear to me. You can always go back to BS 5440 for detail - don't blindly trust manufacturers info, they get it wrong sometimes.

Yes they absolutely do!!! That is what an engineer works to, and we are told in all our exams that is the case! Are you an engineer? If you are then you simply must KNOW that is the case! 
Stop looking at all other ot random manuals that suit your arguments, look at the one for this boiler. What does it say? I agree the caveats are the same and in think looking at those pucs theyre above 25mm so in my opinion It is installed to MI's. Therefore it's absolutely fine. 
BS do not in anyway get in the way of MI's. 

The printed manual page for the boiler in question is incorrect - it doesn't indicate the caveat within BS 5440 Part 1 that you can't do all of the 25mm minimum clearances, and this is corrected in Baxi's later manuals. I doubt you'll find a current manual that doesn't properly identify this. 

I'm a chartered engineer with over 20 years experience designing and inspecting systems. You won't find any building control officer who will agree that manufacturer's comments override building regs - ultimately it's BS 5440 Part 1 that everyone has to come back to, and that is very clear on this. 

This is the manual for a Potterton Promax HE https://www.acwilgar.co.uk/Boiler-Manual-PDF/Potterton/Potterton_Promax_15,24%20HE_Installation.pdf. This has corrected the clearances.

ComicGeek

dil1976 said:

Money_Grabber13579 said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

This shows it better https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/downloads/gas-hoziontal-and-vertical-flue-terminal-positioning.pdf

Its 25mm minimum below the eaves as long as the boiler flue is extended beyond the line of the gutter - yours isn't, so needs to be either 200mm below eaves or extended out past the gutter.

Should also be minimum 300mm from the corner, which yours isn't. 

Definitely not installed correctly. 

I can't agree....why should it be 300 from a corner?
You don't need to extend beyond the eaves. That is fine!
Youre using a Worcester manual for a Baxi!

Those are the flue requirements accordingly to the BS, not manufacturer specific. Some manufacturers are not particularly clear in their explanation of the requirements, and in some cases unfortunately incorrect.

You could also look up the same diagram in Part J of the Building Regulations, it still says 300mm minimum from a corner (p50). That hasn't changed since 2005.

As already stated, MI'S superceed anything.

No they don't - they may well set requirements in additional to Bldg Regs, but they don't supersede them.

Here's a random Baxi install manual I had on a recent project https://www.baxi.co.uk/our-boilers/combi-boilers/-/media/websites/baxiuk/files/product-literature/baxi-600-combi/baxi_600_combi_installation_and_service_manual.pdf?la=en&hash=59F4684A32860F2FCAB0F51E652F9FD09EFC064D

See p33 - the flue is close to the downpipe so the multiple 25mm minimum distances can't be applied, see note 2. So 300mm from internal corner, and 200mm below eaves.

Pretty clear to me. You can always go back to BS 5440 for detail - don't blindly trust manufacturers info, they get it wrong sometimes.

Yes they absolutely do!!! That is what an engineer works to, and we are told in all our exams that is the case! Are you an engineer? If you are then you simply must KNOW that is the case! 
Stop looking at all other ot random manuals that suit your arguments, look at the one for this boiler. What does it say? I agree the caveats are the same and in think looking at those pucs theyre above 25mm so in my opinion It is installed to MI's. Therefore it's absolutely fine. 
BS do not in anyway get in the way of MI's. 

I’m not an engineer (gas or otherwise) and so I’m fully prepared to accept that I don’t know what I’m talking about here. However, as a lay person, I would be skeptical of this argument as my understanding of government safety standards were that they provided a minimum standard in relation to whatever they apply to.  If the instructions breach the minimum standards, I’d have thought that the minimum standard should be applied but if they exceed the minimum standard, the manufacturers instructions should be used.

But as I say, that’s a lay persons view… 

What you have to remember is that the boiler will only meet BS if installed correctly which is according to the MIs, which would of also been test to BS so MIs will always supercede them as the manufacturer will be the one taking the flack if something goes wrong and it ends up in court.

With specific reference to flue locations, both the building regs and manufacturers installation details will refer back to BS 5440 Part 1 which is the primary guidance.

There may be other parts of the overall boiler installation that may be subject to differences between manufacturers, ie installation clearances to the side of the boiler etc. But ultimately it is still the designer/installer's responsibility to install it in accordance with BS 5440 - 'but Baxi said I could put it there' is not going to win any court case when there is clear guidance on this.

Jeepers_Creepers

Out of interest, if the flue did not 'conform', could a solution be to add a plume kit?

ComicGeek

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Out of interest, if the flue did not 'conform', could a solution be to add a plume kit?

Not in its current position as the eaves gets in the way - the existing flue would need modifying either way, so might as well be modified to work without a plume kit.

NSG666

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

This shows it better https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/downloads/gas-hoziontal-and-vertical-flue-terminal-positioning.pdf

Its 25mm minimum below the eaves as long as the boiler flue is extended beyond the line of the gutter - yours isn't, so needs to be either 200mm below eaves or extended out past the gutter.

Should also be minimum 300mm from the corner, which yours isn't. 

Definitely not installed correctly. 

I can't agree....why should it be 300 from a corner?
You don't need to extend beyond the eaves. That is fine!
Youre using a Worcester manual for a Baxi!

Those are the flue requirements accordingly to the BS, not manufacturer specific. Some manufacturers are not particularly clear in their explanation of the requirements, and in some cases unfortunately incorrect.

You could also look up the same diagram in Part J of the Building Regulations, it still says 300mm minimum from a corner (p50). That hasn't changed since 2005.

As already stated, MI'S superceed anything.

Isn't that just the case where the MIs are more stringent than the Regs? e.g. Regs say 300 from a corner but MI says 400 from a corner so it must be 400 from a corner?

tillycat123

Thank you everyone for the feedback, some questions asked, the boiler is in its own cupboard just inside where it vents out, and is what I would say washing machine height, above the boiler is the slant of the roof you can see, so positioned as low as it could have been in its own full height cupboard.

it’s a Bloor house and quite highly specked.

im the third owner and I had a full Rics survey when I bought it 5 years ago. Nothing was flagged on my survey.

this is the first time I’ve had it serviced as it’s been empty but that’s another story.

chap found no problem whatsoever with the boiler when serviced. 

So are a couple of you saying it’s all correctly installed?

I am at a loss what to do, can I just get another engineer out to check it and if he thinks ok issue a certificate? Does the at risk notice go anywhere that the chap has told me this now has? 

This is my boiler manual, it’s not the same as the one the person posted a couple of posts back


https://www.wolseley.co.uk/wcsstore7.00.922.258/ExtendedSitesCatalogAssetStore/images/products/AssetPush/DTP_AssetPushHighRes/std.lang.all/ti/on/Potterton_PromaxCombiHE_Installation.pdf

NSG666

tillycat123 said:

Thank you everyone for the feedback, some questions asked, the boiler is in its own cupboard just inside where it vents out, and is what I would say washing machine height, above the boiler is the slant of the roof you can see, so positioned as low as it could have been in its own full height cupboard.

it’s a Bloor house and quite highly specked.

im the third owner and I had a full Rics survey when I bought it 5 years ago. Nothing was flagged on my survey.

this is the first time I’ve had it serviced as it’s been empty but that’s another story.

chap found no problem whatsoever with the boiler when serviced. 

So are a couple of you saying it’s all correctly installed?

I am at a loss what to do, can I just get another engineer out to check it and if he thinks ok issue a certificate? Does the at risk notice go anywhere that the chap has told me this now has? 

I'd be tempted to give Baxi a call and see what they suggest. They have a customer helpline for Landlords

Baxi Assure Customer Support for New Build | Baxi

tillycat123

I tried several times Friday to reach Baxi with no  avail. I kept being transferred to technical and nobody picks up the calls, I tried all afternoon to speak to someone

will try again Monday

ComicGeek

tillycat123 said:

This is my boiler manual, it’s not the same as the one the person posted a couple of posts back

https://www.wolseley.co.uk/wcsstore7.00.922.258/ExtendedSitesCatalogAssetStore/images/products/AssetPush/DTP_AssetPushHighRes/std.lang.all/ti/on/Potterton_PromaxCombiHE_Installation.pdf

Note 2 on p18 states: 'Only ONE 25mm clearance is allowed per installation. If one of the dimensions D, E, F, G or H is 25mm then the remainder MUST be as B.S.5440-1.'

This is exactly what I was saying above. The installation is not compliant with either the manufacturers info or BS 5440.

Para 7.8.1 states 'The following guidelines indicate the general requirements for siting balanced flue terminals. For GB recommendations are given in BS 5440 Pt 1.'

So not to be taken as gospel, but referred back to BS 5440.

Further down under Important, 'The terminal position must ensure the safe and nuisance - free dispersal of combustion products.' The current position stuck in the corner by the down pipe and eaves does not achieve this. 

The flue needs be moved away from the downpipe and corner - if it can't be lowered due to the boiler height, then it needs extending beyond the eaves and gutter as well. Annoyingly it probably wouldn't have taken any longer to install it properly in the first place.