Is this boiler flue positioned incorrectly? Engineer won’t issue landlord certificate

jefaz07

Another_Level said:

Some landlords (not saying the Op is a landlord) but some just have several visits from different trades people issuing compliance paperwork and they chose the paperwork that they like.  Not all compliance visits are done the same way.

The boiler is old, is there historical compliance paperwork available which has taken into account the flue location.? Sometimes additional information is written on the documents to prove the inspection was satisfactory on that visit.

Was the boiler fitted when the building was constructed ?

Looking at the 2 photos (other onsite inspection could justify the flue position is ok) , there is reason to suggest the gas tech is acting correctly but not having the manufacturer's installation information at hand which are on the internet and commenting on paint is something to be considered.

Having the correct installation and servicing information for the actual boiler is important, the boiler will have a gas council number and the installation & servicing instructions will mention that gas council number. Later boilers of the same name could have a different gas8 council number and totally different installation & servicing instructions.

Similar flue locations could have different dimensions 

New gas boiler with appropriate flueing would be suggested as a remedy. Maybe keep the old boiler -adapt flueing with  a new flue and a plume management kit if available.

Its a 12 year old gas boiler, not many gas tech's will want to research flue part availability or actually carry out what will be quite an expensive flue alteration. 

12 years its getting on 

The new Baxi boilers have the same distances.
Baxis have been the same for years! There is no change! The OP has also provided the distances regarding their flue.
Flue part availability isn't an issue, they sell the same ones now!
Why do you suggest looking at the pictures the flue isn't compliant? 
I have an app with every boiler manufacturers manuals pre installed so I can make informed choices.....this was and still is perfectly acceptable according to old and new Baxi fluing standards.

molerat

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

This shows it better https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/downloads/gas-hoziontal-and-vertical-flue-terminal-positioning.pdf

Its 25mm minimum below the eaves as long as the boiler flue is extended beyond the line of the gutter - yours isn't, so needs to be either 200mm below eaves or extended out past the gutter.

Should also be minimum 300mm from the corner, which yours isn't. 

Definitely not installed correctly. 

I can't agree....why should it be 300 from a corner?
You don't need to extend beyond the eaves. That is fine!
Youre using a Worcester manual for a Baxi!

Why does it matter who's manual it is as those dimensions are from Building Regulations and that flue clearly fails on several counts including proximity to an "internal or external corner" and it must extend beyond the eaves unless more than 200mm below.

ComicGeek

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

This shows it better https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/downloads/gas-hoziontal-and-vertical-flue-terminal-positioning.pdf

Its 25mm minimum below the eaves as long as the boiler flue is extended beyond the line of the gutter - yours isn't, so needs to be either 200mm below eaves or extended out past the gutter.

Should also be minimum 300mm from the corner, which yours isn't. 

Definitely not installed correctly. 

I can't agree....why should it be 300 from a corner?
You don't need to extend beyond the eaves. That is fine!
Youre using a Worcester manual for a Baxi!

Those are the flue requirements accordingly to the BS, not manufacturer specific. Some manufacturers are not particularly clear in their explanation of the requirements, and in some cases unfortunately incorrect.

You could also look up the same diagram in Part J of the Building Regulations, it still says 300mm minimum from a corner (p50). That hasn't changed since 2005.

jefaz07

molerat said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

This shows it better https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/downloads/gas-hoziontal-and-vertical-flue-terminal-positioning.pdf

Its 25mm minimum below the eaves as long as the boiler flue is extended beyond the line of the gutter - yours isn't, so needs to be either 200mm below eaves or extended out past the gutter.

Should also be minimum 300mm from the corner, which yours isn't. 

Definitely not installed correctly. 

I can't agree....why should it be 300 from a corner?
You don't need to extend beyond the eaves. That is fine!
Youre using a Worcester manual for a Baxi!

Why does it matter who's manual it is as those dimensions are from Building Regulations and that flue clearly fails on several counts including proximity to an "internal or external corner" and it must extend beyond the eaves unless more than 200mm below.

It matters because manufacturers instructions superceed anything...including building regs!
Sit your gas exams as I have done many times and you might know that! That comment alone is enough to suggest to me you clearly know nothing. 
What is the distance from internal or external corners using the MANUFACTURER’S INSTRUCTIONS? 
So no, it doesn't fail on any of them! 

ComicGeek

12 year old boiler - the flue wasn't installed correctly when the boiler was installed 12 years ago, the engineer correct in issuing the notice.

The real question is why no one else picked up on this over the last 12 years....

jefaz07

ComicGeek said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

This shows it better https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/downloads/gas-hoziontal-and-vertical-flue-terminal-positioning.pdf

Its 25mm minimum below the eaves as long as the boiler flue is extended beyond the line of the gutter - yours isn't, so needs to be either 200mm below eaves or extended out past the gutter.

Should also be minimum 300mm from the corner, which yours isn't. 

Definitely not installed correctly. 

I can't agree....why should it be 300 from a corner?
You don't need to extend beyond the eaves. That is fine!
Youre using a Worcester manual for a Baxi!

Those are the flue requirements accordingly to the BS, not manufacturer specific. Some manufacturers are not particularly clear in their explanation of the requirements, and in some cases unfortunately incorrect.

You could also look up the same diagram in Part J of the Building Regulations, it still says 300mm minimum from a corner (p50). That hasn't changed since 2005.

As already stated, MI'S superceed anything.

jefaz07

ComicGeek said:

12 year old boiler - the flue wasn't installed correctly when the boiler was installed 12 years ago, the engineer correct in issuing the notice.

The real question is why no one else picked up on this over the last 12 years....

Because there isn't anything wrong with it 

ComicGeek

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

This shows it better https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/downloads/gas-hoziontal-and-vertical-flue-terminal-positioning.pdf

Its 25mm minimum below the eaves as long as the boiler flue is extended beyond the line of the gutter - yours isn't, so needs to be either 200mm below eaves or extended out past the gutter.

Should also be minimum 300mm from the corner, which yours isn't. 

Definitely not installed correctly. 

I can't agree....why should it be 300 from a corner?
You don't need to extend beyond the eaves. That is fine!
Youre using a Worcester manual for a Baxi!

Those are the flue requirements accordingly to the BS, not manufacturer specific. Some manufacturers are not particularly clear in their explanation of the requirements, and in some cases unfortunately incorrect.

You could also look up the same diagram in Part J of the Building Regulations, it still says 300mm minimum from a corner (p50). That hasn't changed since 2005.

As already stated, MI'S superceed anything.

No they don't - they may well set requirements in additional to Bldg Regs, but they don't supersede them.

Here's a random Baxi install manual I had on a recent project https://www.baxi.co.uk/our-boilers/combi-boilers/-/media/websites/baxiuk/files/product-literature/baxi-600-combi/baxi_600_combi_installation_and_service_manual.pdf?la=en&hash=59F4684A32860F2FCAB0F51E652F9FD09EFC064D

See p33 - the flue is close to the downpipe so the multiple 25mm minimum distances can't be applied, see note 2. So 300mm from internal corner, and 200mm below eaves.

Pretty clear to me. You can always go back to BS 5440 for detail - don't blindly trust manufacturers info, they get it wrong sometimes.

jefaz07

ComicGeek said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

This shows it better https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/downloads/gas-hoziontal-and-vertical-flue-terminal-positioning.pdf

Its 25mm minimum below the eaves as long as the boiler flue is extended beyond the line of the gutter - yours isn't, so needs to be either 200mm below eaves or extended out past the gutter.

Should also be minimum 300mm from the corner, which yours isn't. 

Definitely not installed correctly. 

I can't agree....why should it be 300 from a corner?
You don't need to extend beyond the eaves. That is fine!
Youre using a Worcester manual for a Baxi!

Those are the flue requirements accordingly to the BS, not manufacturer specific. Some manufacturers are not particularly clear in their explanation of the requirements, and in some cases unfortunately incorrect.

You could also look up the same diagram in Part J of the Building Regulations, it still says 300mm minimum from a corner (p50). That hasn't changed since 2005.

As already stated, MI'S superceed anything.

No they don't - they may well set requirements in additional to Bldg Regs, but they don't supersede them.

Here's a random Baxi install manual I had on a recent project https://www.baxi.co.uk/our-boilers/combi-boilers/-/media/websites/baxiuk/files/product-literature/baxi-600-combi/baxi_600_combi_installation_and_service_manual.pdf?la=en&hash=59F4684A32860F2FCAB0F51E652F9FD09EFC064D

See p33 - the flue is close to the downpipe so the multiple 25mm minimum distances can't be applied, see note 2. So 300mm from internal corner, and 200mm below eaves.

Pretty clear to me. You can always go back to BS 5440 for detail - don't blindly trust manufacturers info, they get it wrong sometimes.

Yes they absolutely do!!! That is what an engineer works to, and we are told in all our exams that is the case! Are you an engineer? If you are then you simply must KNOW that is the case! 
Stop looking at all other ot random manuals that suit your arguments, look at the one for this boiler. What does it say? I agree the caveats are the same in certain boilers but none of those noted are present in this manual..(from the picture).and I think looking at those pics theyre above 25mm anyway (subject to measuring of course(  so in my opinion It is installed to MI's. Therefore it's absolutely fine. 
BS do not in anyway get in the way of MI's. 

Money_Grabber13579

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

jefaz07 said:

ComicGeek said:

This shows it better https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/downloads/gas-hoziontal-and-vertical-flue-terminal-positioning.pdf

Its 25mm minimum below the eaves as long as the boiler flue is extended beyond the line of the gutter - yours isn't, so needs to be either 200mm below eaves or extended out past the gutter.

Should also be minimum 300mm from the corner, which yours isn't. 

Definitely not installed correctly. 

I can't agree....why should it be 300 from a corner?
You don't need to extend beyond the eaves. That is fine!
Youre using a Worcester manual for a Baxi!

Those are the flue requirements accordingly to the BS, not manufacturer specific. Some manufacturers are not particularly clear in their explanation of the requirements, and in some cases unfortunately incorrect.

You could also look up the same diagram in Part J of the Building Regulations, it still says 300mm minimum from a corner (p50). That hasn't changed since 2005.

As already stated, MI'S superceed anything.

No they don't - they may well set requirements in additional to Bldg Regs, but they don't supersede them.

Here's a random Baxi install manual I had on a recent project https://www.baxi.co.uk/our-boilers/combi-boilers/-/media/websites/baxiuk/files/product-literature/baxi-600-combi/baxi_600_combi_installation_and_service_manual.pdf?la=en&hash=59F4684A32860F2FCAB0F51E652F9FD09EFC064D

See p33 - the flue is close to the downpipe so the multiple 25mm minimum distances can't be applied, see note 2. So 300mm from internal corner, and 200mm below eaves.

Pretty clear to me. You can always go back to BS 5440 for detail - don't blindly trust manufacturers info, they get it wrong sometimes.

Yes they absolutely do!!! That is what an engineer works to, and we are told in all our exams that is the case! Are you an engineer? If you are then you simply must KNOW that is the case! 
Stop looking at all other ot random manuals that suit your arguments, look at the one for this boiler. What does it say? I agree the caveats are the same and in think looking at those pucs theyre above 25mm so in my opinion It is installed to MI's. Therefore it's absolutely fine. 
BS do not in anyway get in the way of MI's. 

I’m not an engineer (gas or otherwise) and so I’m fully prepared to accept that I don’t know what I’m talking about here. However, as a lay person, I would be skeptical of this argument as my understanding of government safety standards were that they provided a minimum standard in relation to whatever they apply to.  If the instructions breach the minimum standards, I’d have thought that the minimum standard should be applied but if they exceed the minimum standard, the manufacturers instructions should be used.

But as I say, that’s a lay persons view…