Funds for a stockmarket downturn/crash

eskbanker

tranquility1 said:

eskbanker said:

tranquility1 said:

A multi asset portfolio (or fund) would include genuinely diversified components which perform differently in good/bad times. 

Equities and bonds don't do that in reality.

Ah right, so you feel that, because you believe that equities and bonds are correlated, they effectively constitute a single asset class?  So how many otherwise different classes need to be included and in what sort of proportions, in order to satisfy your unilateral definition?  Are there any available funds that fit your definition?

No, I don't think equities and bonds are a single asset class. I just don't think they are the level of diversification which they are perceived as providing.

I've already outlined (two versions) of the portfolio I suggest offers greater true diversification. eg:

60% equities (I like VWRP)
20% gold

5% silver
5% crypto
10% cash

I haven't looked for such a fund, but I'd guess this is a DIY portfolio only. And especially so since I believe that it's important of possible to hold the metals yourself.

So you're effectively saying that there's no such thing as a multi-asset fund, in terms of an off-the-shelf product that would fit your chosen definition?

tranquility1

eskbanker said:

tranquility1 said:

eskbanker said:

tranquility1 said:

A multi asset portfolio (or fund) would include genuinely diversified components which perform differently in good/bad times. 

Equities and bonds don't do that in reality.

Ah right, so you feel that, because you believe that equities and bonds are correlated, they effectively constitute a single asset class?  So how many otherwise different classes need to be included and in what sort of proportions, in order to satisfy your unilateral definition?  Are there any available funds that fit your definition?

No, I don't think equities and bonds are a single asset class. I just don't think they are the level of diversification which they are perceived as providing.

I've already outlined (two versions) of the portfolio I suggest offers greater true diversification. eg:

60% equities (I like VWRP)
20% gold

5% silver
5% crypto
10% cash

I haven't looked for such a fund, but I'd guess this is a DIY portfolio only. And especially so since I believe that it's important of possible to hold the metals yourself.

So you're effectively saying that there's no such thing as a multi-asset fund, in terms of an off-the-shelf product that would fit your chosen definition?

Yes, that's correct. But I haven't looked for such a fund, so I can't say for sure. But regarding holding your own gold/silver, that's something I can't imagine a fund offering.


I take your point that what I'm referring to is a portfolio, and not a fund. 

Alice_Holt

tranquility1 said:

eskbanker said:

tranquility1 said:

eskbanker said:

tranquility1 said:

A multi asset portfolio (or fund) would include genuinely diversified components which perform differently in good/bad times. 

Equities and bonds don't do that in reality.

Ah right, so you feel that, because you believe that equities and bonds are correlated, they effectively constitute a single asset class?  So how many otherwise different classes need to be included and in what sort of proportions, in order to satisfy your unilateral definition?  Are there any available funds that fit your definition?

No, I don't think equities and bonds are a single asset class. I just don't think they are the level of diversification which they are perceived as providing.

I've already outlined (two versions) of the portfolio I suggest offers greater true diversification. eg:

60% equities (I like VWRP)
20% gold

5% silver
5% crypto
10% cash

I haven't looked for such a fund, but I'd guess this is a DIY portfolio only. And especially so since I believe that it's important of possible to hold the metals yourself.

So you're effectively saying that there's no such thing as a multi-asset fund, in terms of an off-the-shelf product that would fit your chosen definition?

But regarding holding gold/silver, that's something I can't imagine a fund offering.

     Incorrect.


   https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/fund-tips/2020/02/27/mitigate-market-downside-with-personal-assets-trust/

   https://www.trustnet.com/factsheets/t/im46/personal-assets-trust-plc-ord

  https://www.capitalgearingtrust.com/homepage

  https://markets.investorschronicle.co.uk/data/funds/tearsheet/summary?s=GB00B8510Q93:GBX



  Are you aware of EFT's ?

 https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/funds-etfs/2020/01/23/the-right-routes-to-gold-and-property/



This is an excellent site which may help you improve your investment knowledge: 

https://monevator.com/the-slow-and-steady-passive-portfolio-update-q2-2021/

tranquility1

Alice_Holt said:

tranquility1 said:

eskbanker said:

tranquility1 said:

eskbanker said:

tranquility1 said:

A multi asset portfolio (or fund) would include genuinely diversified components which perform differently in good/bad times. 

Equities and bonds don't do that in reality.

Ah right, so you feel that, because you believe that equities and bonds are correlated, they effectively constitute a single asset class?  So how many otherwise different classes need to be included and in what sort of proportions, in order to satisfy your unilateral definition?  Are there any available funds that fit your definition?

No, I don't think equities and bonds are a single asset class. I just don't think they are the level of diversification which they are perceived as providing.

I've already outlined (two versions) of the portfolio I suggest offers greater true diversification. eg:

60% equities (I like VWRP)
20% gold

5% silver
5% crypto
10% cash

I haven't looked for such a fund, but I'd guess this is a DIY portfolio only. And especially so since I believe that it's important of possible to hold the metals yourself.

So you're effectively saying that there's no such thing as a multi-asset fund, in terms of an off-the-shelf product that would fit your chosen definition?

But regarding holding gold/silver, that's something I can't imagine a fund offering.

     Incorrect.


   https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/fund-tips/2020/02/27/mitigate-market-downside-with-personal-assets-trust/

   https://www.trustnet.com/factsheets/t/im46/personal-assets-trust-plc-ord

  https://www.capitalgearingtrust.com/homepage

  https://markets.investorschronicle.co.uk/data/funds/tearsheet/summary?s=GB00B8510Q93:GBX



  Are you aware of EFT's ?

 https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/funds-etfs/2020/01/23/the-right-routes-to-gold-and-property/



This is an excellent site which may help you improve your investment knowledge: 

https://monevator.com/the-slow-and-steady-passive-portfolio-update-q2-2021/

They deliver gold/silver to your house?

Shocking_Blue

Aminatidi said:

I have my money spread across:

• Capital Gearing Trust
• Ruffer Investment Company
• Fundsmith
• Smithson
• Buffettology

I don't think any of them are specifically for a downturn/crash but what I've tried to do is balance funds that have a "wealth preservation" mandate with funds with a growth mandate but hopefully with a focus on good companies that steer clear of bubbles and hopefully just plod on doing their thing come what may.

I have a bit of a thing about trying to pick managers that have skin in the game too as I think it helps align interests.

Just out of interest, wondered what members thought were of distribution across wealth protection, defensive-oriented and PBs I currently have:

CGT 14%
Fundsmith/Smithson 16% in total
PBs 19%

Along with balanced multi-asset funds 32%

Rest in 100% equities inc riskier satellite funds and some punts.

Retirement probably 5 or 6 years.

Thanks.

jamesd

westy22 said:

As far as I am aware, you can only buy the D version from Hargreaves Lansdown exclusively. 
Anyway, the £150k and £200m you mention are the Minimum Investment levels - not the total amount invested in the fund which is in excess of £9 billion!

Thanks, I've corrected my post.

tranquility1

IanManc said:

tranquility1 said:

 We are in unchartered territory ......

You keep on saying this.

We might be in uncharted territory, i.e. territory for which there is no chart; but territory cannot be chartered.

Accountants and surveyors can be chartered though.  🙂

Thank you for pointing that out!

masonic

tranquility1 said:

Alice_Holt said:

tranquility1 said:

eskbanker said:

tranquility1 said:

eskbanker said:

tranquility1 said:

A multi asset portfolio (or fund) would include genuinely diversified components which perform differently in good/bad times. 

Equities and bonds don't do that in reality.

Ah right, so you feel that, because you believe that equities and bonds are correlated, they effectively constitute a single asset class?  So how many otherwise different classes need to be included and in what sort of proportions, in order to satisfy your unilateral definition?  Are there any available funds that fit your definition?

No, I don't think equities and bonds are a single asset class. I just don't think they are the level of diversification which they are perceived as providing.

I've already outlined (two versions) of the portfolio I suggest offers greater true diversification. eg:

60% equities (I like VWRP)
20% gold

5% silver
5% crypto
10% cash

I haven't looked for such a fund, but I'd guess this is a DIY portfolio only. And especially so since I believe that it's important of possible to hold the metals yourself.

So you're effectively saying that there's no such thing as a multi-asset fund, in terms of an off-the-shelf product that would fit your chosen definition?

But regarding holding gold/silver, that's something I can't imagine a fund offering.

     Incorrect.


   https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/fund-tips/2020/02/27/mitigate-market-downside-with-personal-assets-trust/

   https://www.trustnet.com/factsheets/t/im46/personal-assets-trust-plc-ord

  https://www.capitalgearingtrust.com/homepage

  https://markets.investorschronicle.co.uk/data/funds/tearsheet/summary?s=GB00B8510Q93:GBX



  Are you aware of EFT's ?

 https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/funds-etfs/2020/01/23/the-right-routes-to-gold-and-property/



This is an excellent site which may help you improve your investment knowledge: 

https://monevator.com/the-slow-and-steady-passive-portfolio-update-q2-2021/

They deliver gold/silver to your house?

Thankfully no. When you buy units/shares in a fund or ETF/ETC, you don't become a direct owner of the underlying investments. If it is an equities fund, you don't receive share certificates for each of the fund's holdings in the post, and if there are investments in physical metals, they are held in a vault by a nominee. It does mean that you have to trust the fund manager and their auditors, but on the flip side you don't have to worry about being burgled or paying for storage and insurance. If you want your gold/silver in hand because you think society is going to collapse, then perhaps give collective investments a miss entirely and invest in guns, farmland and a bunker as diversifiers.

tranquility1

masonic said:

tranquility1 said:

Alice_Holt said:

tranquility1 said:

eskbanker said:

tranquility1 said:

eskbanker said:

tranquility1 said:

A multi asset portfolio (or fund) would include genuinely diversified components which perform differently in good/bad times. 

Equities and bonds don't do that in reality.

Ah right, so you feel that, because you believe that equities and bonds are correlated, they effectively constitute a single asset class?  So how many otherwise different classes need to be included and in what sort of proportions, in order to satisfy your unilateral definition?  Are there any available funds that fit your definition?

No, I don't think equities and bonds are a single asset class. I just don't think they are the level of diversification which they are perceived as providing.

I've already outlined (two versions) of the portfolio I suggest offers greater true diversification. eg:

60% equities (I like VWRP)
20% gold

5% silver
5% crypto
10% cash

I haven't looked for such a fund, but I'd guess this is a DIY portfolio only. And especially so since I believe that it's important of possible to hold the metals yourself.

So you're effectively saying that there's no such thing as a multi-asset fund, in terms of an off-the-shelf product that would fit your chosen definition?

But regarding holding gold/silver, that's something I can't imagine a fund offering.

     Incorrect.


   https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/fund-tips/2020/02/27/mitigate-market-downside-with-personal-assets-trust/

   https://www.trustnet.com/factsheets/t/im46/personal-assets-trust-plc-ord

  https://www.capitalgearingtrust.com/homepage

  https://markets.investorschronicle.co.uk/data/funds/tearsheet/summary?s=GB00B8510Q93:GBX



  Are you aware of EFT's ?

 https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/funds-etfs/2020/01/23/the-right-routes-to-gold-and-property/



This is an excellent site which may help you improve your investment knowledge: 

https://monevator.com/the-slow-and-steady-passive-portfolio-update-q2-2021/

They deliver gold/silver to your house?

Thankfully no. When you buy units/shares in a fund or ETF/ETC, you don't become a direct owner of the underlying investments. If it is an equities fund, you don't receive share certificates for each of the fund's holdings in the post, and if there are investments in physical metals, they are held in a vault by a nominee. It does mean that you have to trust the fund manager and their auditors, but on the flip side you don't have to worry about being burgled or paying for storage and insurance. If you want your gold/silver in hand because you think society is going to collapse, then perhaps give collective investments a miss entirely and invest in guns, farmland and a bunker as diversifiers.

I think you're over-egging the pud with the "guns, farmland and bunker" comment. 

Owning the gold isn't only about societal collapse. It's about banking collapse and currency debasement/devaluation, which are realistic scenarios.

masonic

tranquility1 said:

masonic said:

tranquility1 said:

Alice_Holt said:

tranquility1 said:

eskbanker said:

tranquility1 said:

eskbanker said:

tranquility1 said:

A multi asset portfolio (or fund) would include genuinely diversified components which perform differently in good/bad times. 

Equities and bonds don't do that in reality.

Ah right, so you feel that, because you believe that equities and bonds are correlated, they effectively constitute a single asset class?  So how many otherwise different classes need to be included and in what sort of proportions, in order to satisfy your unilateral definition?  Are there any available funds that fit your definition?

No, I don't think equities and bonds are a single asset class. I just don't think they are the level of diversification which they are perceived as providing.

I've already outlined (two versions) of the portfolio I suggest offers greater true diversification. eg:

60% equities (I like VWRP)
20% gold

5% silver
5% crypto
10% cash

I haven't looked for such a fund, but I'd guess this is a DIY portfolio only. And especially so since I believe that it's important of possible to hold the metals yourself.

So you're effectively saying that there's no such thing as a multi-asset fund, in terms of an off-the-shelf product that would fit your chosen definition?

But regarding holding gold/silver, that's something I can't imagine a fund offering.

     Incorrect.


   https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/fund-tips/2020/02/27/mitigate-market-downside-with-personal-assets-trust/

   https://www.trustnet.com/factsheets/t/im46/personal-assets-trust-plc-ord

  https://www.capitalgearingtrust.com/homepage

  https://markets.investorschronicle.co.uk/data/funds/tearsheet/summary?s=GB00B8510Q93:GBX



  Are you aware of EFT's ?

 https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/funds-etfs/2020/01/23/the-right-routes-to-gold-and-property/



This is an excellent site which may help you improve your investment knowledge: 

https://monevator.com/the-slow-and-steady-passive-portfolio-update-q2-2021/

They deliver gold/silver to your house?

Thankfully no. When you buy units/shares in a fund or ETF/ETC, you don't become a direct owner of the underlying investments. If it is an equities fund, you don't receive share certificates for each of the fund's holdings in the post, and if there are investments in physical metals, they are held in a vault by a nominee. It does mean that you have to trust the fund manager and their auditors, but on the flip side you don't have to worry about being burgled or paying for storage and insurance. If you want your gold/silver in hand because you think society is going to collapse, then perhaps give collective investments a miss entirely and invest in guns, farmland and a bunker as diversifiers.

I think you're over-egging the pud with the "guns, farmland and bunker" comment. 

Owning the gold isn't only about societal collapse. It's about banking collapse and currency debasement/devaluation, which are realistic scenarios.

Currency debasement/devaluation is a realistic scenario, and happens all the time to a greater or lesser extent. In that scenario, even extreme examples such as happened in Zimbabwe, goods and services were still sold using fiat currency. While it certainly would be inconvenient to experience the effects of hyperinflation while waiting for T+2 settlement on your gold ETC sale, it's vanishingly unlikely even a government as incompetent as our current one could mismanage its way into that sort of situation, and if they did all bets are off as to the fabric of society. Banking collapse would likely have similar consequences. I don't think your local supermarket will be accepting payment in gold in either scenario, and your local pawnbroker/trader may be reluctant to pay you anywhere near spot price, so I wouldn't consider "electronic gold" to be inferior as a portfolio diversifier.