REMOVED THIS THREAD

peteyh

eddddy said:

peteyh said:

Why do EA's request you to sign a contract if simply a verbal conversation as regards engaging them to sell is enough?

Yes im saying we had not agreed any finer details of the sale, Ie House price, Term of contract, commission fee.
So what verbal contract have I agreed to. The photographer works for the EA not myself, inviting someone onto my property to take images is not falling into a binding contract if the contract details had not been verbally or written agreed. The onus is not on me to turn away a photographer, the onus on me is not to sign a contract if not deemed suitable.

EDDDY are you an estate agent or have connections - genuine question. Your suggestions are The onus seems to be entirely ont he client and not the EA for every action.

appreciate feedback though

It seems like you're avoiding the key questions:

• Did the EA give you a written copy of their contract terms?
• Did the EA give you details of their fee in writing?
• Did the EA give you details of the minimum contract length in writing?

• Did you tell the EA to start marketing your property?

I'm not an EA. I think that some EAs are despicable (but some are ok). That's why I'm trying to help you understand contract law, how EA's contracts work, and highligh some of the 'tricks' EAs play.


EAs will often sue sellers in court, if they believe that the seller owes them a fee, so you need to understand contract law - so that you can offer a solid defence.

Although it's often better to complain to the Property Ombudsman, before the EA starts legal proceedings. They tend to be friendlier towards the consumer.

Worse case - I ditch Agent B with good reasons - ie poor marketing etc. Market myself. Buyer bids offline we agree. Sales ago ahead. Agent B tries to take me to court, i fchoose to fight or pay fee. 

peteyh

Robbo66 said:

peteyh said:

Robbo66 said:

Have a read here
https://propertyindustryeye.com/why-court-decided-that-sellers-did-not-have-to-pay-commission-to-first-agent/#:~:text=Palmer Snell were claiming a total of £9,580 including court fees.&text=The case had its roots,viewings and carried out 11.

Based on what you have said neither is entitled to a fee however it would depend on Agents A contract and whether or not it is a sole selling rights agreement or a sole agency.

Great Articel - Agent A have done zero to sell to this couple by way of "introduction" on that basis.  No viewings, no on going dealings with the couple.

It comes down to if im in a contract with Agent B. who have good cause to say they introduced or attempted too the propsed couple i now seek to deal with direct.

I'm still doubtful if you would owe them a fee if they weren't instrumental in making the deal happen. The only exception that contradicts the ruling highlighted in the article would be if the agents have sole selling rights or sole agency agreements

Well agent B. Did get the couple buying to both finally Market and sell their property through them to even be able to view mine (due to me refusing viewings of unsold buyers) that all happened within space of a week. They have then since been in continued dialogue with the prospective buyers as regards them trying to get a viewing with me. Whilst the buyers previously sent me a letter back in December last year of their interest. They have ultimately come to me through their relationship with Agent B.

Hence my feeling its comes to the , Am i in contract with Agent B or not. Their is also a sub context as to their behaivour in inducing the buyers to beleive ill accept a low offer to get them to sell and deliberate poor marketing of my property that was not shown to anyone other than this couple - all of which was to get them TWO commisions.

Am I in contract... 

Irishpearce26

peteyh said:

pinkshoes said:

Did you put it in writing that agent B were NOT to market your property until <date> as this was when your contract with Agent A ended? 

If so... then they should not have been giving any details to potential buyers before this date.

Also... it sounds to me like this neighbour became aware of the sale when it was advertised with agent A, so agent A would therefore be owed the fee.


Finally... as agent B was a second agent, they should have asked this buyer if they had enquired about the property with agent A. Agent A  should have supplied a list of people they had introduced.

I'm thinking Agent A is due a fee, but unless you have it in writing that B were not to market the property yet then you might also have to pay B.

Not in writing with specific dates - but THEY made me aware of the notice period. So agreed they couldnt market before that, merely take pics and ready to market. The house has not been officially marketed, they have merely sent me markerting details to be approved along with a contract to sign - both of which ive nor refused at this point to be clear on that. Anythijng they have done would have been "behind the scenes" AND without a written contract.

Agent A have been given notice. They did not introuduce the couple.
- The couple called AGENT A. when they had no ability to buy (hadnt markerted their property) agent told them they couldnt view due to COVID
- They viewed another property in FEB20 through agent A. still whilst in no position to buy. Agent mentioned my property, but nothing more said about a viewing.
I cant see that is an introduction in any form?

Whatever way you want to look at it, that is an introduction of sale.  Whilst still in the terms they let the buyers know your house was for sale = introduction whether they bought it then or 1-2 months later.

Do you have proof you have rejected the contract or terms?

eddddy

peteyh said:

Thats great EDDDY just wanted to see i was getting balanced opinion - all comments are appreciated.

Not avoiding answers, just unsure you beleive the timeline here.
1. I only recieved their contract terms this week with the marketing pamphlet for my house for me to sign. The first time I'd received. 
2. NO agreed fee in writing - Until this week (UNSIGNED) along with contract terms, post pictures, post their attempted market, not agreed too and withink KNOWN overlap with Agent. A which they knew about.
3. NO agreed minimum contract in writing (UNSIGNED) until this week  along with contract terms, post pictures, post their attempted market, not agreed too and withink KNOWN overlap with Agent. A which they knew about.
4. NO I didnt request they market it, indeed I ASKED how i need confrm closure with Agent A. as id only served notice and wished to take advice how to seamlessly ensure i was no longer in contract. I was only aware of them marketing when they suggested someone view my property, which I refused as they were in no position to purchase.

Added to this they sneakily advised the intended buyer that I would accept to take offers 25k under my listing price to get them to sell their property to insenticise them to sell through them and put offer in. Certainly not acting on my behalf 

Maybe it's just me - but it sounds so much like you're trying to use 'clever words' to avoid answering simple questions. A court would come down on you like a ton of bricks, if you tried doing that.

For example, "Did the EA give you details of their fee in writing?" - Answering "NO agreed fee in writing" makes it sound like you're hiding something.  It's not me you need to convince about this stuff.

Anyway, if you didn't tell the EA to proceed, it sounds like you don't have a contract.


(But you might find it difficult to persuade a court that you didn't tell the EA to proceed - because you then acted as though a contract existed. e.g. You let the EA's photographer come and photograph your house. Why would you do that if you believed that no contract existed?)

peteyh

Irishpearce26 said:

peteyh said:

pinkshoes said:

Did you put it in writing that agent B were NOT to market your property until <date> as this was when your contract with Agent A ended? 

If so... then they should not have been giving any details to potential buyers before this date.

Also... it sounds to me like this neighbour became aware of the sale when it was advertised with agent A, so agent A would therefore be owed the fee.


Finally... as agent B was a second agent, they should have asked this buyer if they had enquired about the property with agent A. Agent A  should have supplied a list of people they had introduced.

I'm thinking Agent A is due a fee, but unless you have it in writing that B were not to market the property yet then you might also have to pay B.

Not in writing with specific dates - but THEY made me aware of the notice period. So agreed they couldnt market before that, merely take pics and ready to market. The house has not been officially marketed, they have merely sent me markerting details to be approved along with a contract to sign - both of which ive nor refused at this point to be clear on that. Anythijng they have done would have been "behind the scenes" AND without a written contract.

Agent A have been given notice. They did not introuduce the couple.
- The couple called AGENT A. when they had no ability to buy (hadnt markerted their property) agent told them they couldnt view due to COVID
- They viewed another property in FEB20 through agent A. still whilst in no position to buy. Agent mentioned my property, but nothing more said about a viewing.
I cant see that is an introduction in any form?

Whatever way you want to look at it, that is an introduction of sale.  Whilst still in the terms they let the buyers know your house was for sale = introduction whether they bought it then or 1-2 months later.

Do you have proof you have rejected the contract or terms?

Lets not confuse Agent a. and B.

Agent A. The couple requested to see my property and were refused. An above post states that would not be considered an introduction as stated by the TPO?

Agent B.
I've only just been provided MY contract terms ie commision , timescales, marketing price, etc etc this week and immediately said i was not signing as the details of the marketing were utterly incorrect and i'd not agreed to any of enclosed. So , im currently in the midst of rejecting, i can't reject something until its put in front of me no? Thats surely the very point of a signature?

HopeAndDriftWood

peteyh said:

Irishpearce26 said:

peteyh said:

pinkshoes said:

Did you put it in writing that agent B were NOT to market your property until <date> as this was when your contract with Agent A ended? 

If so... then they should not have been giving any details to potential buyers before this date.

Also... it sounds to me like this neighbour became aware of the sale when it was advertised with agent A, so agent A would therefore be owed the fee.


Finally... as agent B was a second agent, they should have asked this buyer if they had enquired about the property with agent A. Agent A  should have supplied a list of people they had introduced.

I'm thinking Agent A is due a fee, but unless you have it in writing that B were not to market the property yet then you might also have to pay B.

Not in writing with specific dates - but THEY made me aware of the notice period. So agreed they couldnt market before that, merely take pics and ready to market. The house has not been officially marketed, they have merely sent me markerting details to be approved along with a contract to sign - both of which ive nor refused at this point to be clear on that. Anythijng they have done would have been "behind the scenes" AND without a written contract.

Agent A have been given notice. They did not introuduce the couple.
- The couple called AGENT A. when they had no ability to buy (hadnt markerted their property) agent told them they couldnt view due to COVID
- They viewed another property in FEB20 through agent A. still whilst in no position to buy. Agent mentioned my property, but nothing more said about a viewing.
I cant see that is an introduction in any form?

Whatever way you want to look at it, that is an introduction of sale.  Whilst still in the terms they let the buyers know your house was for sale = introduction whether they bought it then or 1-2 months later.

Do you have proof you have rejected the contract or terms?

Lets not confuse Agent a. and B.

Agent A. The couple requested to see my property and were refused. An above post states that would not be considered an introduction as stated by the TPO?

Agent B.
I've only just been provided MY contract terms ie commision , timescales, marketing price, etc etc this week and immediately said i was not signing as the details of the marketing were utterly incorrect and i'd not agreed to any of enclosed. So , im currently in the midst of rejecting, i can't reject something until its put in front of me no? Thats surely the very point of a signature?

You've had really good advice so I won't rehash it, but on the last point, as you've mentioned it a few times - a signature makes things easier, as it's clearer for all parties. But contracts can be formed on verbal agreements, or in some circumstances by behaving as if you've accepted the terms. That will be your obstacle here. You may not have signed the contract; and if you hadn't previously been told about fees/commission, that probably gives you fairly good grounds to negotiate those, but you have allowed the photographer to enter and photograph your home ready to list it, which could easily be seen as you accepting the contract for Agent B to market your home. On the face of it, it seems nonsensical to argue that you didn't intend to enter a contract for Agent B to market your home but allowed them to come and take photographs, so a court might reject that. 

But we can only go from what you've said here; and you're able to take your chances and try to persuade a court if it gets that far, if you want to.

peteyh

eddddy said:

peteyh said:

Thats great EDDDY just wanted to see i was getting balanced opinion - all comments are appreciated.

Not avoiding answers, just unsure you beleive the timeline here.
1. I only recieved their contract terms this week with the marketing pamphlet for my house for me to sign. The first time I'd received. 
2. NO agreed fee in writing - Until this week (UNSIGNED) along with contract terms, post pictures, post their attempted market, not agreed too and withink KNOWN overlap with Agent. A which they knew about.
3. NO agreed minimum contract in writing (UNSIGNED) until this week  along with contract terms, post pictures, post their attempted market, not agreed too and withink KNOWN overlap with Agent. A which they knew about.
4. NO I didnt request they market it, indeed I ASKED how i need confrm closure with Agent A. as id only served notice and wished to take advice how to seamlessly ensure i was no longer in contract. I was only aware of them marketing when they suggested someone view my property, which I refused as they were in no position to purchase.

Added to this they sneakily advised the intended buyer that I would accept to take offers 25k under my listing price to get them to sell their property to insenticise them to sell through them and put offer in. Certainly not acting on my behalf 

Maybe it's just me - but it sounds so much like you're trying to use 'clever words' to avoid answering simple questions. A court would come down on you like a ton of bricks, if you tried doing that.

For example, "Did the EA give you details of their fee in writing?" - Answering "NO agreed fee in writing" makes it sound like you're hiding something.  It's not me you need to convince about this stuff.

Anyway, if you didn't tell the EA to proceed, it sounds like you don't have a contract.


(But you might find it difficult to persuade a court that you didn't tell the EA to proceed - because you then acted as though a contract existed. e.g. You let the EA's photographer come and photograph your house. Why would you do that if you believed that no contract existed?)

Im not sure trhe word NO is clever. Let me try and re-emphasise so you comprehend to enable you to provide a balanced view. 
- No fee had been written down prior to photographer or the Marketing leaflet being "produced" - What am i hiding? There was no written fee.
- No timeline of contract had been writtent down prior to photographer or the Marketing leaflet being "produced"
- The agent 2. has not yet "officially / legally" marketed, they cannot , i havent signed a contract and I was still tied to agent 1. at that point. They went to ONE couple, off line, who they wanted to push into marketing / selling a property under them to enable them to view my property which i refused to happen.
- The first time as ive said i saw fees etc was the same day i saw the poor offering to market officially.
- The EA 2. suggested getting a photographer in early to hit the ground running when i was out of contract with Agent.1 
I'm not attempting to convince anyone, merely stating facts so those in the know can opine. 

The opinion you raise is, that "proceeding to **prepare** to market" is sufficient to be in a binding contract, before you have written agreement as to a yet undefined contract?

Thus.
- Details of contract are irrelevant even if unwritten.
- Quality of marketing is irrelevant.
- Non-Signature of contract is irrelevant

peteyh

Update - Agent. A has called and confirmed they have ended contract - will send list of "viewers" they istructed and only then if one of them approached to purchase, as Agent1. would be due fee. So won't be due based on buyer who merely contacted them based on their Advert. Which goes with the TPO suggestion thats not an "introduction"

Agent 2. question still remains if they are in or out of a contract with me.

peteyh

SaucySecrets said:

peteyh said:

Irishpearce26 said:

peteyh said:

pinkshoes said:

Did you put it in writing that agent B were NOT to market your property until <date> as this was when your contract with Agent A ended? 

If so... then they should not have been giving any details to potential buyers before this date.

Also... it sounds to me like this neighbour became aware of the sale when it was advertised with agent A, so agent A would therefore be owed the fee.


Finally... as agent B was a second agent, they should have asked this buyer if they had enquired about the property with agent A. Agent A  should have supplied a list of people they had introduced.

I'm thinking Agent A is due a fee, but unless you have it in writing that B were not to market the property yet then you might also have to pay B.

Not in writing with specific dates - but THEY made me aware of the notice period. So agreed they couldnt market before that, merely take pics and ready to market. The house has not been officially marketed, they have merely sent me markerting details to be approved along with a contract to sign - both of which ive nor refused at this point to be clear on that. Anythijng they have done would have been "behind the scenes" AND without a written contract.

Agent A have been given notice. They did not introuduce the couple.
- The couple called AGENT A. when they had no ability to buy (hadnt markerted their property) agent told them they couldnt view due to COVID
- They viewed another property in FEB20 through agent A. still whilst in no position to buy. Agent mentioned my property, but nothing more said about a viewing.
I cant see that is an introduction in any form?

Whatever way you want to look at it, that is an introduction of sale.  Whilst still in the terms they let the buyers know your house was for sale = introduction whether they bought it then or 1-2 months later.

Do you have proof you have rejected the contract or terms?

Lets not confuse Agent a. and B.

Agent A. The couple requested to see my property and were refused. An above post states that would not be considered an introduction as stated by the TPO?

Agent B.
I've only just been provided MY contract terms ie commision , timescales, marketing price, etc etc this week and immediately said i was not signing as the details of the marketing were utterly incorrect and i'd not agreed to any of enclosed. So , im currently in the midst of rejecting, i can't reject something until its put in front of me no? Thats surely the very point of a signature?

You've had really good advice so I won't rehash it, but on the last point, as you've mentioned it a few times - a signature makes things easier, as it's clearer for all parties. But contracts can be formed on verbal agreements, or in some circumstances by behaving as if you've accepted the terms. That will be your obstacle here. You may not have signed the contract; and if you hadn't previously been told about fees/commission, that probably gives you fairly good grounds to negotiate those, but you have allowed the photographer to enter and photograph your home ready to list it, which could easily be seen as you accepting the contract for Agent B to market your home. On the face of it, it seems nonsensical to argue that you didn't intend to enter a contract for Agent B to market your home but allowed them to come and take photographs, so a court might reject that. 

But we can only go from what you've said here; and you're able to take your chances and try to persuade a court if it gets that far, if you want to.

Agreed, certainly never said i didnt intend to proceed with said Agent nor acted like I wasnt, there is no denial here, I wanted them - But if an agent then 
- Provides substandard marketing (the description of the house was not for my home)
- Fees higher than expected and higher than my prior Agent of which i advised them my prior fee.
- Marketed prior to contracted legal timelines
- Marketed without consent
- Marketed without agreed contactual details such as fees.
- Advised Couple A. I would accept 25k under asking (false) to obtain their property on their portfolio and not act on my behalf to gain best price.
- Only pre-marketed my property without consent to Couple . A as evidence by only viewing they requested to make and have since. 
- Doesnt gain my signature.
Then there are grounds to not proceed to signing contracts.
Yet the suggestion is a photographer taking pictures of my property overwrites all over the above pre signed contractual issues.

Say we dont agree on a fee, simple, what then, how can we ever be in a contract?

Irishpearce26

peteyh said:

Update - Agent. A has called and confirmed they have ended contract - will send list of "viewers" they istructed and only then if one of them approached to purchase, as Agent1. would be due fee. So won't be due based on buyer who merely contacted them based on their Advert. Which goes with the TPO suggestion thats not an "introduction"

Agent 2. question still remains if they are in or out of a contract with me.

Please stop making your posts so confusing. Is agent A now agent 1? From what you say agent A/1 still introduced the buyer by informing them a house on their books at the time was for sale and they are now buying said house. Your thought process around signing or instruction is very blurry, by your post you would let a trades man come in lay a new floor but not pay him because you only asked for a quote. They marketed your property for you, you weren't happy but in an agreement.