Getting back into driving

Raindrop32

Goody thankyou for your reply. Your right ots a skill in itself learning to handle mistakes and some I say I handled quite well. One instance was I pulled into a side road and on the right was another road further up and a car didnt look it  just pulled out and i had to slam my breaks on before he hit me. He wouldnt reverse back to let me past though it was his fault and I had to drive tightly around him to get passed and park somewhere to calm down but I got over ot quickly and off i went, so to handle that situation but panic when I stall ect I just dont get. I think it's because I know by stalling or taking a while park might upset other motorists so in that instance I tend to rush. I really need to breathe and ignore those beeping behind me or being impatient.

Ebe_scrooge I know what you mean about over revving my nans partner is terrible for it he does it all the time. Hes even said to me more revs no stalling...yes but surley that's no good for your car. He actually makes a few mistakes on the road and I always say I'll never complain about my driving again and here I am lol. 

Username03725

Revving the engine won't hurt it. You're unlikely to rev it past the limit (aka red line, usually about 6500 for petrol, 4500 diesel) as older cars will run out of steam before you damage it and newish ones have a limiter built-in. Different engines have different characteristics and need more or fewer revs to get going so it's a case of finding out your car's lower limit. If you have a rev counter go somewhere quiet and find out what works best to pull away smoothly; it might be happy at 1500, it might need 3000 to get going. And it'll be different for starting downhill, on the flat or uphill. You won't damage it with brief high revs when pulling away, any more than you'll damage it by driving at 70mph / 4500rpm on a motorway.

Ebe_Scrooge

Username03725 said:

Revving the engine won't hurt it. You're unlikely to rev it past the limit (aka red line, usually about 6500 for petrol, 4500 diesel) as older cars will run out of steam before you damage it and newish ones have a limiter built-in. Different engines have different characteristics and need more or fewer revs to get going so it's a case of finding out your car's lower limit. If you have a rev counter go somewhere quiet and find out what works best to pull away smoothly; it might be happy at 1500, it might need 3000 to get going. And it'll be different for starting downhill, on the flat or uphill. You won't damage it with brief high revs when pulling away, any more than you'll damage it by driving at 70mph / 4500rpm on a motorway.

In general I agree.  It's more when you rev the guts out of it when you've only just started and the engine is cold and the oil has barely started circulating.  Maybe I'm over-worrying - but I expect my cars to last for many years (well in excess of ten years), so for the sake of a bit of mechanical sympathy I figure it's got to help a little bit :-) 

ontheroad1970

Username03725 said:

Revving the engine won't hurt it. You're unlikely to rev it past the limit (aka red line, usually about 6500 for petrol, 4500 diesel) as older cars will run out of steam before you damage it and newish ones have a limiter built-in. Different engines have different characteristics and need more or fewer revs to get going so it's a case of finding out your car's lower limit. If you have a rev counter go somewhere quiet and find out what works best to pull away smoothly; it might be happy at 1500, it might need 3000 to get going. And it'll be different for starting downhill, on the flat or uphill. You won't damage it with brief high revs when pulling away, any more than you'll damage it by driving at 70mph / 4500rpm on a motorway.

I don't know many modern engines that would be at 4500 rpm at 70mph if in the correct gear.

Revving the engine to avoid stalling might also annoy the neighbours after a while.

Biggus_Dickus

 @Raindrop32

You mention ‘stalling’ in most of your posts, which for someone who has passed a driving test shouldn’t really be happening with any frequency;...and even just the fear of stalling is apparently shaking your confidence very badly.

Having mastery of the ‘clutch’ is fundamental to safe and confident driving.

When I was taught to drive many centuries ago as part of every lesson I was made to perform a little clutch control test which entailed driving the stationary  car from 0mph up to 15mph in 1st gear without touching the accelerator! I then had to repeat the task in 2nd gear,... then 3rd gear...and lastly in 4th gear.

The exercise of starting off in 4th gear without use of the accelerator is obviously the most difficult and the ‘clutch control’ required takes a fair bit of aptitude, but with a little practice it is easily achieved. Try it on quiet supermarket carpark or a quiet flat straight road.

Once you’ve mastered the above exercise you’ll probably never stall an engine again. It’s as though your left foot, the clutch and engine have become one!...and you are the one in control, not the engine!...it becomes instinctive;...it will certainly help with your fear of hill-starts as well.

Forget that rubbish (from your Nan's partner) about needing to rev the engine like mad in order to prevent stalling. You need to rev an engine to the appropriate level,...it’s your clutch-control that prevents stalling.

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

Goudy

Biggus has a pretty valid point there.

A lot of modern cars will actually increase the rpm with the clutch for you. Push the clutch pedal down and put it in gear and you may notice the rpm's rise a little by themsleves as you start to lift the clutch.

Fiat got a lot of stick for their problems with the Euro 6 version of the 500 and Panda bogging down when pulling away, particularly from Watchdog.

Having at the time both Euro 5 and 6 versions to hand it I could do a few back to back tests.

The Euro 6 tries to control the rpm a little more when pulling away than the Euro 5 and any input on the accelerator from the driver didn't really do much until after the clutch was fully raised. So what happens is the car's ECU (brain) is metering out enough fuel for what it thinks it correct, but the driver is opening the throttle up to lots of air so the engine bogs down as there's too much air to fuel.

The trick to a smooth take off for one of these 500's/Pandas is as Biggus explains, lift the clutch smoothly without any throttle until it starts to creep, then accelerte. You could do this on the steepest hills and it worked everytime, unlike the Watchdog film suggested.

Just park up somewhere flat and quiet and slowly/smoothly lift the clutch in gear with the car just idling, I bet it increases the revs slightly so you can get it moving without touching the accelerator.

Username03725

ontheroad1970 said:
I don't know many modern engines that would be at 4500 rpm at 70mph if in the correct gear.

Revving the engine to avoid stalling might also annoy the neighbours after a while.

I plucked a figure out of thin air to make the point that any engine is designed to run continuously at some thousand RPM, so brief periods at the same revs won't hurt it.

Biggus_Dickus said:

 Forget that rubbish about needing to rev the engine like mad in order to prevent stalling. You need to rev an engine to the appropriate level,...it’s your clutch-control that prevents stalling. 

Which is what I was suggesting our friend Raindrop might try...

Username03725 said:

 If you have a rev counter go somewhere quiet and find out what works best to pull away smoothly; it might be happy at 1500, it might need 3000 to get going. And it'll be different for starting downhill, on the flat or uphill. 

I got my son over his initial inability to get the feel of the clutch by taking him to a supermarket car park and repeating the exercise of pulling away and going through the gears without touching the throttle. He soon got it. It's well worth a try.

Raindrop32

Some good advice from everyone thankyou.
Biggus that's some good information on the clutch control. I learnt in a diesel with both instructors I had the first one had me pull off with the clutch no accelerator then when I swapped instructors the new one said always a bit of gas bitting point then slowly off the clutch so I this is what I got used to. I think the last time i stalled was because I saw a car coming the opposite way so I pulled in then tried to get going again stalled, then noticed the cars behind me panicked and stalled again then again I've never stalled like that before so o then added abit more accelerator slowly off the clutch and off I went so I think in this instance as I panicked I just kept doing the same thing rather than trying to add more acceleration. So I think I know I need more it's the people behind me that panic if I'm in a quiet street and stall I'm ok. 
I need to feel this car more and get used to it just like i did the other. When I passed in the diesel I actually drove a petrol sports car we had at the time and I was so nervous especially since everyone was saying petrol is easier to stall harder to drive ect bit I got the feel for the car and was ok. This one we have is a diesel so I thought I could jump straight in no problems so it just shows cars are different and you need to get to know it and hopefully all this will be a long distence nightmare (I hope) 

princeofpounds

I'll be another voice to say that what you are experiencing is not at all unusual, although for some people it's stronger and others weaker or non-existent.

It will disappear, if you keep pushing yourself and gaining experience. Just very gradually you will accumulate more and more experience of the infinite scenarios you can face with driving, and your confidence will grow (not in a straight line!). You will make mistakes - everyone does, you have to in order to learn. They will get smaller and less frequent. 

I would strongly recommend some refresher courses. Nothing wrong with that, and it could be a huge help in sorting out some of the technique issues you have remaining. The pass plus course is designed for exactly this, if you can extend to that. 

You should also work out some practice circuits/locations, which you can do either as practice or to extend drives you are taking for other reasons. Initially it should be something you feel relatively confident on, except that you should stretch yourself by doing something slightly different each time - tackle a new junction or road, or try a maneuver in a different location. Find a quiet slope to practice clutch control and hill starts. Stall on purpose so you practice what to do AFTER a stall! Find a quiet road to practice parallel parking. Find a quiet car park to practice too - it can even help to get some little cones to maneuver around, so you can judge the size of your car, how it moves, and what it looks like in the mirrors etc. If you have someone experienced to accompany you that can work really well in setting and reviewing challenges, as long as their personality works for it.

It is also an option to move to an automatic. It will reduce the stress of operating the car itself a great deal, allowing you to focus on the outside situation. Most cars are going this way, and when we are all driving hybrids/EVs they all will be. But mastering manual is satisfying and you are most of the way there already, so you might want to develop a certain skill level before switching. If you go automatic I doubt you would go back to learn manual again.

Ditzy_Mitzy

The difficulty with all this 'setting the gas' business is that it causes drivers to worry about things they don't need to worry about and, ultimately, leads to poor clutch control.  There isn't a 'right' number of revs to move off using, it varies depending on how quickly one wishes to get going, how fast one wishes to go once rolling, if one already is rolling, you name it.  These things are best done by feel, rather than by attempts to break the thing down into a recipe or process.  It's more like playing a musical instrument than operating a computer.  You have to play the notes, or operate the controls, not only in the right order but with the right timings and degrees of finesse.
All the clutch does is disconnect the engine output from the gearbox input.  Imagine the car, therefore the gearbox input, is stationary and the engine is running.  Press the clutch in and put it in gear.  Begin to release the clutch, which looks like two flat discs with grippy faces.  The engine driven disc (spinning) moves towards and then touches the other disc (not spinning).  The spinning disc rubs against the still disc, which makes it start to move.  It is connected to the gearbox, so the wheels start to turn too.  The car is heavy, so doesn't want to start moving.  The car's inertia is, if you don't do it right, what stalls the engine.  Imagine the force grabbing hold of the spinning plate: the whole thing comes to a stop.  
The faster the engine is going (more revs), the less likely it is to stall.  The problem is that more revs spin the spinning disc faster so, when the clutch engages fully and the speeds of both discs equalise, the wheels are also turning faster.  You may find yourself pulling away too quickly as a result and then you let off and the car lurches.  Horrid.  
The aim is to have the spinning disc turning at the speed you want it to as you bring the stationary clutch disc into contact with it.  You control the speed of the spinning disc with the throttle and you control the distance between the discs with the clutch pedal.  
Start, as Biggus said, on level ground and release the clutch without touching the throttle.  Do it gently, and slowly, and feel the car start to move.  Listen to the engine.  It will start to wind down, that's the inertia acting on the spinning disc.  Nothing to worry about.  If it winds down too much and stalls, start the engine again and give it another try.  Be gentle  When you've mastered that, try again but this time rest your foot on the accelerator.  Release the clutch in the same way, but this time open the throttle a little bit.  Do it just enough to stop the engine winding down.  Keep at it and you'll find you can let the clutch out more quickly.  Then move to trying it on a slope, and getting going more quickly.