Shared Driveway nightmare

Jeepers_Creepers

kardella said:

I’ve inserted my plan as a file, hopefully you can see it.

"Areas of joint rights of way. (Private drives)"

I think that's pretty clear. 'Joint' rights of way. Taking your neighb's intransigence to it's logical conclusion, what's to stop you parking where your neighb does, right outside his drive? Do you reckon they'd get the point then? And you'd be equally entitled to do this (ie - not at all...)

A couple of points that I think I'm correct on; it would be nice if the LL tried to help you out and sent a stern letter to their tenants, but actually this is a civil matter between you and the tenants, and not between you and the LL; the LL is doing nothing wrong. If I was this LL, I'd like to think that I would make it clear that tenants shouldn't be causing neighbourly disputes, and that I would be seriously looking at whether to renew the tenancy come the end of the initial agreement. If they point-blank refused to move their vehicle off that 'right of way', I would even serve them notice. However, as I understand it, the LL is not obliged to do any of this.

That was almost certainly a genuine cop! And he was most definitely a complete twit. You asking someone to move their incorrectly-parked car is potential harassment?! You have got to be joking!

Kard, have on you at all times a covert method of recording so you can capture the level of 'reasonableness' you are dealing with; if they claim 'harassment', you can evidence that it's barlocks. 

This needs sorting, yes? It isn't going to happen until these arrogant and unreasonable gits know the game is up. If the LL isn't willing to apply pressure, then it's up to you. What a shame you don't have LP on your insurance - put that right on renewal.

You get your facts and reason sorted in your mind - that plan included - and you approach them. Calmly, level voiced, factual, straight to the point and look them straight in the eye. Speak to them as if they were simple (not patronising, but just in very unambiguous terms). "Hi. This is a copy of the deeds. It shows this area as 'AOJROW' which means only one thing - the marked drive is for communal access to the 3 properties, and not for parking on; that is the definition of 'rights of way'. The reason is obvious - parking on there makes access difficult - and sometimes impossible - for other users. So, can you keep it free from now on please."

They will come back with all the usual barlocks; "What's the harm?", "Plenty of room!", to which you calmly return to the facts - "it's a right of way only. The deeds do not permit you to park there. If you were allowed to park there, then so would I - and I could park right outside your drive. Do you understand why the deeds are what they are? You are in breach of the terms of the deeds; are you going to continue to breach these terms?"

"But blah blah blah..."

"Are you going to continue to breach the terms of the deeds?"

If they say daft things like "You wouldn't dare block our driveway!" you reply "Of course not - I wouldn't park anywhere on the right of way. I appreciate that the deeds are there for everyone's benefit, so wouldn't dream of taking advantage or inconveniencing others." Absolute reasonableness, and absolutely stick to the facts - nothing emotive. Show them up.

But you need to be ready to take this forward if needed. If not the LL, then a letter from a solicitor.

This won't go away without action. Don't worry about it being a 'dispute' - (a) it'll be a resolved issue, and (b) they are only tenants and not 'permanent' neighbours. And (c) would you lie to potential buyers anyway - say that there are no problems?

Actually, I might be wrong about the LL not having direct responsibility - I think I read before that tenancy agreements do contain clauses about expected behaviour? Definitely go the LL route first.

Oh, and smile and say hello at the neighbs every time your paths cross - you are M. Reasonable and are fully on the right side.

(Even if you don't have LP on your insurance, they may still be willing to provide legal advice).

kardella

greatcrested said:

greatcrested said:

As previously requested, please quote the exact wording from your Title document.

Please also describe in precise detail what the Title Plan shows.

If you want advice of a legal nature, you need to provide precise legal details.

Do the same for your neighbour's Title.

On my title it just says shared driveway.

That's not a quote.

I doubt that's the full wording.

Are you sure that's on the Title, not on the Plan?

What's in your neighbor's Title?

Many thanks for your help.
I've just had good news from the letting agency advising that they have spoken to the tenants about not parking on the shared driveway and they will be putting it in writing to them. The letting agency has confirmed that tenants stated they will not park there.  

I have asked for an email from the letting agency confirming the above so that I have proof in the future when I come to sell that dispute was resolved.
I hope this is all over with now.

kardella

sgun said:

kardella said:

mobileron said:

Was it a real policeman did u see id.

I didn’t see ID, but I believe he was a real policeman as he did have all the expensive gear on and he did speak policeman language, he was very fair and knew what he was talking about re a ‘community neighbour order’ which of course I declined to sign as this would affect my enhanced criminal check which I need for my job. I also pointed out that this would affect the neighbours as well as the wife works with children.

Community Protection Notice? No such thing as a "community neighbour order". Do you mean that the police officer told you that this would be imposed on you? If so, put in a complaint. They have no grounds to issue one - or was this just a polite conversation outlining what might happen if you are in fact harrassing your neighbour (which you aren't as far as we can tell on this thread). You would be given a written warning before it was imposed anyhow so none of this sounds quite right tbh.

Hi, you may be right with the cpn? I would fully dispute it anyway.  The good thing I’ve have just had news from the letting agency regarding the tenants not parking there anymore, so hopefully the situation has resolved. I have asked for an email from the letting agency so I have evidence that dispute was resolved if I come to sell my property.

Titus_Wadd

There should be details in the "deeds" (TP1 or TR1) for each of the three houses at the Land Registry to explain the right of way - most probably each house has a right to pass and repass to access their own off-street parking on their drive.  This wouldn't include a right to park on the right of way unless that is specified (I think).  That's the only sensible starting point - to download your TP1 or you might have a copy posted to you from your solicitor a few months after you bought your house so rummage through any paperwork first.

We have been trying for months to get a CPN (Community Protection Notice) to restrain our lunatic neighbours but we've been given hoop after hoop to jump through and the council bod won't promise they can help us.  If anything they are trying to wriggle out of doing anything.  The counsil suggested we canvass the other neighbours to report any similar behaviour and even asked me to provide a list of residents' names and addresses to the PCSO who would send an ASB survey to them.  She got @rsey with me when I pointed out that we're shielding so wouldn't be knocking on doors, and that the planning dept. has a neighbours list for commenting on the their numerous planning applications so couldn't the PCSO use that! 

If the Police are threatening you with a CPN for just asking the neighbours to stop blocking the right of way they must surely be bluffing.  However if the tenants vehicle is blocking you getting on to the road they should act on your behalf to ask them to unblock the shared drive.  BUT and it's a big but; if the "shared driveway" or wider estate has privately owned roads before you get to the public roads the police won't help you.  We have had our driveway blocked by the NFH (neighbour from hell) but because it's a private road the Police won't help and the Counsil bod can't arrange for it to be towed.

So you need to read exactly what your house "deeds" (TP1 or TR1) about the nature of the Right of Way, and also who owns the "shared drive" to be sure what the three householders in your row can and can't do.  Without this we can only speculate.  (you might have a copy of it in the paperwork sent to you a couple of months after your purchase if the solicitor sent it to you but you can download it for a few quid online if not).  Your builders' plan shows the road marked in hexagons as being adopted; has it been adopted by the counsil?

If you get on with the third house owners at 79, it's really good to have an ally even if they aren't as impacted by the middle house tenants' parking, they might not be able to pull in front of the middle house (78) to reverse into their drive.

kardella

Titus_Wadd said:

There should be details in the "deeds" (TP1 or TR1) for each of the three houses at the Land Registry to explain the right of way - most probably each house has a right to pass and repass to access their own off-street parking on their drive.  This wouldn't include a right to park on the right of way unless that is specified (I think).  That's the only sensible starting point - to download your TP1 or you might have a copy posted to you from your solicitor a few months after you bought your house so rummage through any paperwork first.

We have been trying for months to get a CPN (Community Protection Notice) to restrain our lunatic neighbours but we've been given hoop after hoop to jump through and the council bod won't promise they can help us.  If anything they are trying to wriggle out of doing anything.  The counsil suggested we canvass the other neighbours to report any similar behaviour and even asked me to provide a list of residents' names and addresses to the PCSO who would send an ASB survey to them.  She got @rsey with me when I pointed out that we're shielding so wouldn't be knocking on doors, and that the planning dept. has a neighbours list for commenting on the their numerous planning applications so couldn't the PCSO use that! 

If the Police are threatening you with a CPN for just asking the neighbours to stop blocking the right of way they must surely be bluffing.  However if the tenants vehicle is blocking you getting on to the road they should act on your behalf to ask them to unblock the shared drive.  BUT and it's a big but; if the "shared driveway" or wider estate has privately owned roads before you get to the public roads the police won't help you.  We have had our driveway blocked by the NFH (neighbour from hell) but because it's a private road the Police won't help and the Counsil bod can't arrange for it to be towed.

So you need to read exactly what your house "deeds" (TP1 or TR1) about the nature of the Right of Way, and also who owns the "shared drive" to be sure what the three householders in your row can and can't do.  Without this we can only speculate.  (you might have a copy of it in the paperwork sent to you a couple of months after your purchase if the solicitor sent it to you but you can download it for a few quid online if not).  Your builders' plan shows the road marked in hexagons as being adopted; has it been adopted by the counsil?

If you get on with the third house owners at 79, it's really good to have an ally even if they aren't as impacted by the middle house tenants' parking, they might not be able to pull in front of the middle house (78) to reverse into their drive.

Many thanks for your detailed note, As a social worker I would have fought the cpn to the end if it happened, it would have to be evidenced re anti social behaviour and that’s certainly not me, asking someone not to park is not anti-social.  The other neighbours on the other side warned me when I moved in that the tenants are “difficult “ and use to getting what they want whether it’s right or wrong, hence I followed the process of verbal and written communication and taking photos as evidence of impeachment.  Hopefully after the call I received from the letting agency this am , the matter is resolved and I can just be a happy person getting in/out of my home without worry of hitting something or being blocked in.
Hopefully sanity will prevail. 🤞🤞

pinkteapot

kardella said:

Many thanks for your help.
I've just had good news from the letting agency advising that they have spoken to the tenants about not parking on the shared driveway and they will be putting it in writing to them. The letting agency has confirmed that tenants stated they will not park there.  

I have asked for an email from the letting agency confirming the above so that I have proof in the future when I come to sell that dispute was resolved.
I hope this is all over with now.

Good result - congratulations. You may well find that other neighbours complained to the agency too - if others are affected in the same way as you. 

kardella

Jeepers_Creepers said:

kardella said:

I’ve inserted my plan as a file, hopefully you can see it.

"Areas of joint rights of way. (Private drives)"

I think that's pretty clear. 'Joint' rights of way. Taking your neighb's intransigence to it's logical conclusion, what's to stop you parking where your neighb does, right outside his drive? Do you reckon they'd get the point then? And you'd be equally entitled to do this (ie - not at all...)

A couple of points that I think I'm correct on; it would be nice if the LL tried to help you out and sent a stern letter to their tenants, but actually this is a civil matter between you and the tenants, and not between you and the LL; the LL is doing nothing wrong. If I was this LL, I'd like to think that I would make it clear that tenants shouldn't be causing neighbourly disputes, and that I would be seriously looking at whether to renew the tenancy come the end of the initial agreement. If they point-blank refused to move their vehicle off that 'right of way', I would even serve them notice. However, as I understand it, the LL is not obliged to do any of this.

That was almost certainly a genuine cop! And he was most definitely a complete twit. You asking someone to move their incorrectly-parked car is potential harassment?! You have got to be joking!

Kard, have on you at all times a covert method of recording so you can capture the level of 'reasonableness' you are dealing with; if they claim 'harassment', you can evidence that it's barlocks. 

This needs sorting, yes? It isn't going to happen until these arrogant and unreasonable gits know the game is up. If the LL isn't willing to apply pressure, then it's up to you. What a shame you don't have LP on your insurance - put that right on renewal.

You get your facts and reason sorted in your mind - that plan included - and you approach them. Calmly, level voiced, factual, straight to the point and look them straight in the eye. Speak to them as if they were simple (not patronising, but just in very unambiguous terms). "Hi. This is a copy of the deeds. It shows this area as 'AOJROW' which means only one thing - the marked drive is for communal access to the 3 properties, and not for parking on; that is the definition of 'rights of way'. The reason is obvious - parking on there makes access difficult - and sometimes impossible - for other users. So, can you keep it free from now on please."

They will come back with all the usual barlocks; "What's the harm?", "Plenty of room!", to which you calmly return to the facts - "it's a right of way only. The deeds do not permit you to park there. If you were allowed to park there, then so would I - and I could park right outside your drive. Do you understand why the deeds are what they are? You are in breach of the terms of the deeds; are you going to continue to breach these terms?"

"But blah blah blah..."

"Are you going to continue to breach the terms of the deeds?"

If they say daft things like "You wouldn't dare block our driveway!" you reply "Of course not - I wouldn't park anywhere on the right of way. I appreciate that the deeds are there for everyone's benefit, so wouldn't dream of taking advantage or inconveniencing others." Absolute reasonableness, and absolutely stick to the facts - nothing emotive. Show them up.

But you need to be ready to take this forward if needed. If not the LL, then a letter from a solicitor.

This won't go away without action. Don't worry about it being a 'dispute' - (a) it'll be a resolved issue, and (b) they are only tenants and not 'permanent' neighbours. And (c) would you lie to potential buyers anyway - say that there are no problems?

Actually, I might be wrong about the LL not having direct responsibility - I think I read before that tenancy agreements do contain clauses about expected behaviour? Definitely go the LL route first.

Oh, and smile and say hello at the neighbs every time your paths cross - you are M. Reasonable and are fully on the right side.

(Even if you don't have LP on your insurance, they may still be willing to provide legal advice).

Thank you for all your help and information. I have a diary of events, dates times and photos and I will continue with this just in case future legal in put is required. 

I have now been assured by the letting agency that parking will not occur again on the right of way.  Apparently the only come back the tenants had was to mention my furniture container when I moved in , in June 2020. Even then I wrote two weeks prior to both neighbours giving notice and how appreciated I would be for their help. The tenants still didn’t move the van saying it wouldn’t start so I helped pushed it back (still on the shared driveway) so the truck could deliver. I though it funny at the time that a woman had to push a big van while two young men (sons) stayed in the house lol, lucky I am stronger than I look lol.  I am just hoping that I don’t get any ‘tit for tat’ behaviours. But I’ll just record it.

Titus_Wadd

Kardella I hope things settle down.  If they don't, just keep a note of them blocking the RoW and a snap on your phone will be date stamped.

I think it's important to maintain the moral high ground, as you have been doing.  By keeping emails of letters short and polite there can't be any serious claim of harassment.  Much better to have a rant on here or on the phone to a mate than at the neighbours!

Jeepers_Creepers

kardella said:

Thank you for all your help and information. I have a diary of events, dates times and photos and I will continue with this just in case future legal in put is required. 

I have now been assured by the letting agency that parking will not occur again on the right of way.  Apparently the only come back the tenants had was to mention my furniture container when I moved in , in June 2020. Even then I wrote two weeks prior to both neighbours giving notice and how appreciated I would be for their help. The tenants still didn’t move the van saying it wouldn’t start so I helped pushed it back (still on the shared driveway) so the truck could deliver. I though it funny at the time that a woman had to push a big van while two young men (sons) stayed in the house lol, lucky I am stronger than I look lol.  I am just hoping that I don’t get any ‘tit for tat’ behaviours. But I’ll just record it.

Excellent. You clearly have a good handle on this, and it's great that you have been noting down all the incidences up until now - that is soooo important for when it finally comes to a head (I know - I've been there).

Now that this issue is very likely resolved, they probably will just accept it, but they might also look for petty ways to get back at you. The latter would be harassment, so I would urge you to call the 'friendly local Bobby' on the first instance if it's remotely significant, or just record it for evidence if truly petty and doesn't really bother you. Bear in mind that, if they do something petty and feel they got away with it, it'll almost certainly happen again. Keep recording it all, and then - when you've decided 'enough', act.  It's a 'game' to twits like these, always thinking they have unreasonable rights and expectations, and they hate being put back in their boxes. They only respond to knowing that the game is finally up.

Greymug

ivavoucher said:

"I have tried speaking with the tenants several times with no success "

What did they say? You may be able to reason with them.

After OP went to speak to them, they sent a cop and say they're been harassed. They don't seem like the kind of people you can reason with