Query around furlough agreement

Jonesy1977

Unless I am missing something it looks like you agreed to allow them to place you on short time and reclaim CJRS ‘for as long as the scheme exists’ this is not uncommon.  You have been placed on short time, this is the mechanism and CJRS is the amount the company can reclaim, this is important because they have the right to place you on reduced hours irrespective of your permission (I have not read your contract so I am guessing here based on the responses) the only query is then whether you agree to them reclaiming CJRS and they clearly believe you have given blanket permission, this my or may not be the case but does not help you as the mechanism to reduce your hours is still there.   As @Jeremy535897says the calculation is complex, and it seems your firm have outlined the way they have calculated (based on calendar) and I am no expert but I think this may be correct.  In my limited (for a small number of staff and early on) experience the calculations have been really difficult to reconcile but are not hugely different to expectations.

I suggest raising a new ticket, run your calculation against theirs and ask for help to reconcile, be clear that you are not raising a dispute just seeking to understand how you may be impacted moving forward, and whether they can help you understand your calculations, this may tease out any possible  mistake that may have negatively impacted your pay.

Try not to conflate the issue of whether you should be furloughed with how much you have been paid in my opinion. I don’t think it will help get to the outcome you are seeking.

best of luck

FuzzyDuck1

Jeremy535897 said:

The method of calculating furlough is very complex, and the links I provide demonstrate this. The initial letter you received was unsatisfactory, in that it said you will receive 80% of your pay while furloughed, with the caveat that the method of calculation was yet to be provided by the government. They are relying on this to pay you whatever the CJRS rules (in their opinion) provide, and these can have bizarre results for tiny amounts of furlough. The scheme was not designed for this (although flexi furlough can last any length of time, it is normally supposed to last at least a week).

There are a number of areas that you will have pointed out already, including the principal issue that they have no followed their own procedures on any furlough after 8 May, so should not be furloughing you at all. They might also have difficulty in showing that a 4 hour furlough is as a result of coronavirus (unless for example a job was cancelled due to coronavirus). The trouble is that they have mentioned short time working before, and they may just default to that.

Just one thing... I have an email from HR manager clarifying that when they say “short timed “ they mean flexi-furlough 

Jeremy535897

FuzzyDuck1 said:

Jeremy535897 said:

The method of calculating furlough is very complex, and the links I provide demonstrate this. The initial letter you received was unsatisfactory, in that it said you will receive 80% of your pay while furloughed, with the caveat that the method of calculation was yet to be provided by the government. They are relying on this to pay you whatever the CJRS rules (in their opinion) provide, and these can have bizarre results for tiny amounts of furlough. The scheme was not designed for this (although flexi furlough can last any length of time, it is normally supposed to last at least a week).

There are a number of areas that you will have pointed out already, including the principal issue that they have no followed their own procedures on any furlough after 8 May, so should not be furloughing you at all. They might also have difficulty in showing that a 4 hour furlough is as a result of coronavirus (unless for example a job was cancelled due to coronavirus). The trouble is that they have mentioned short time working before, and they may just default to that.

Just one thing... I have an email from HR manager clarifying that when they say “short timed “ they mean flexi-furlough 

That is today, but that initial letter mentions the statutory version. See https://www.gov.uk/lay-offs-short-timeworking

FuzzyDuck1

Jonesy1977 said:

Unless I am missing something it looks like you agreed to allow them to place you on short time and reclaim CJRS ‘for as long as the scheme exists’ this is not uncommon.  You have been placed on short time, this is the mechanism and CJRS is the amount the company can reclaim, this is important because they have the right to place you on reduced hours irrespective of your permission (I have not read your contract so I am guessing here based on the responses) the only query is then whether you agree to them reclaiming CJRS and they clearly believe you have given blanket permission, this my or may not be the case but does not help you as the mechanism to reduce your hours is still there.   As @Jeremy535897says the calculation is complex, and it seems your firm have outlined the way they have calculated (based on calendar) and I am no expert but I think this may be correct.  In my limited (for a small number of staff and early on) experience the calculations have been really difficult to reconcile but are not hugely different to expectations.

I suggest raising a new ticket, run your calculation against theirs and ask for help to reconcile, be clear that you are not raising a dispute just seeking to understand how you may be impacted moving forward, and whether they can help you understand your calculations, this may tease out any possible  mistake that may have negatively impacted your pay.

Try not to conflate the issue of whether you should be furloughed with how much you have been paid in my opinion. I don’t think it will help get to the outcome you are seeking.

best of luck

Thanks. The initial agreement is attached.  From looking at my wage slips the company claimed furlough for 2 days holiday I took in September and 2 days holiday in October. I know that was a much simpler calculation as they claimed 80% and topped up to 100% so my monthly pay wasn’t affected. Both September and October each had 21 working days. Same as January.  I really struggle therefore to see how 4 hours less work for the entire month can leave such a huge difference on a usual months pay. 

FuzzyDuck1

Jeremy535897 said:

FuzzyDuck1 said:

Jeremy535897 said:

The method of calculating furlough is very complex, and the links I provide demonstrate this. The initial letter you received was unsatisfactory, in that it said you will receive 80% of your pay while furloughed, with the caveat that the method of calculation was yet to be provided by the government. They are relying on this to pay you whatever the CJRS rules (in their opinion) provide, and these can have bizarre results for tiny amounts of furlough. The scheme was not designed for this (although flexi furlough can last any length of time, it is normally supposed to last at least a week).

There are a number of areas that you will have pointed out already, including the principal issue that they have no followed their own procedures on any furlough after 8 May, so should not be furloughing you at all. They might also have difficulty in showing that a 4 hour furlough is as a result of coronavirus (unless for example a job was cancelled due to coronavirus). The trouble is that they have mentioned short time working before, and they may just default to that.

Just one thing... I have an email from HR manager clarifying that when they say “short timed “ they mean flexi-furlough 

That is today, but that initial letter mentions the statutory version. See https://www.gov.uk/lay-offs-short-timeworking

Thank you for this. HR confirmed the terminology of “short timed” as being “flexi furlough” last week. 

Ok so let’s just say the company can use that initial agreement:
 I get 8 hours pay for bank holiday 1st January.
4-8th January 36 hours worked & 4 hours furloughed 
11-15th January 40 hours worked
18-22nd January 40 hours worked
25-29th January 40 hours worked. 

164 total hours worked. 168 including furloughed hours. 

The company have confirmed they have paid me for 160 including furlough hours. 

Therefore I’ve worked 8 hours more than they’ve paid me for. Can they just not pay me those 8 hours that I’ve worked and claim those hours as “short timed/lay off”?

Jeremy535897

FuzzyDuck1 said:

Jeremy535897 said:

FuzzyDuck1 said:

Jeremy535897 said:

The method of calculating furlough is very complex, and the links I provide demonstrate this. The initial letter you received was unsatisfactory, in that it said you will receive 80% of your pay while furloughed, with the caveat that the method of calculation was yet to be provided by the government. They are relying on this to pay you whatever the CJRS rules (in their opinion) provide, and these can have bizarre results for tiny amounts of furlough. The scheme was not designed for this (although flexi furlough can last any length of time, it is normally supposed to last at least a week).

There are a number of areas that you will have pointed out already, including the principal issue that they have no followed their own procedures on any furlough after 8 May, so should not be furloughing you at all. They might also have difficulty in showing that a 4 hour furlough is as a result of coronavirus (unless for example a job was cancelled due to coronavirus). The trouble is that they have mentioned short time working before, and they may just default to that.

Just one thing... I have an email from HR manager clarifying that when they say “short timed “ they mean flexi-furlough 

That is today, but that initial letter mentions the statutory version. See https://www.gov.uk/lay-offs-short-timeworking

Thank you for this. HR confirmed the terminology of “short timed” as being “flexi furlough” last week. 

Ok so let’s just say the company can use that initial agreement:
 I get 8 hours pay for bank holiday 1st January.
4-8th January 36 hours worked & 4 hours furloughed 
11-15th January 40 hours worked
18-22nd January 40 hours worked
25-29th January 40 hours worked. 

164 total hours worked. 168 including furloughed hours. 

The company have confirmed they have paid me for 160 including furlough hours. 

Therefore I’ve worked 8 hours more than they’ve paid me for. Can they just not pay me those 8 hours that I’ve worked and claim those hours as “short timed/lay off”?

AsI said earlier, they have to pay you for the time you worked.

Jonesy1977

It may be because of the bank holiday.  You have a statutory right to the bank holiday but it may be that they are giving you the time rather than the pay (because you were furloughed then) check your accrued holiday allowance. 

FuzzyDuck1

Jonesy1977 said:

It may be because of the bank holiday.  You have a statutory right to the bank holiday but it may be that they are giving you the time rather than the pay (because you were furloughed then) check your accrued holiday allowance. 

I think that’s where the problem lies too... the bank holiday has been taken off the holiday allowance for that day. The company said they claimed it as furlough but it didn’t reflect that it had been furloughed in my January pay slip - only the 4 hours. And it’s definitely not been calculated in my wages from the breakdown payroll gave to me. This is what I have been questioning and being referred to the agreement last year stating I’d agreed to being paid a lower salary. 

Jonesy1977

I think that this may be a case of "computer says No" it could be that the system used automatically blanks bank holidays in the year and that when they have done the calculations based on hours worked it has not taken this into account.   I think that a final ticket very specifically asking about the fact that you seem to be unpaid for the bank holiday might elicit HR taking a further look at it, but again I would be careful not to query the furlough itself and to ensure that they know that you are happy and grateful for the company doing CJRS reclaim.  It may take a bit of time (and I appreciate 8 hours is a lot) but you may find it is clearer when you receive your next payslip.

FuzzyDuck1

Jonesy1977 said:

I think that this may be a case of "computer says No" it could be that the system used automatically blanks bank holidays in the year and that when they have done the calculations based on hours worked it has not taken this into account.   I think that a final ticket very specifically asking about the fact that you seem to be unpaid for the bank holiday might elicit HR taking a further look at it, but again I would be careful not to query the furlough itself and to ensure that they know that you are happy and grateful for the company doing CJRS reclaim.  It may take a bit of time (and I appreciate 8 hours is a lot) but you may find it is clearer when you receive your next payslip.

Thanks. I did raise another ticket asking what you said above and was closed by HR without any further discussion or information regarding it. The company have said that all wages due to flexi furlough are calculated manually for every employee and are calculated with great care.  Obviously this leaves room for manual error. I wasn’t making a big deal out of the flexi agreement (even though the company didn’t explain anywhere that I was now classed as a flexi furlough employee now) its the company that have continuously stated to me that I’ve agreed to it. The only issue I have surrounding the flexi furlough is that the company didn’t notify me as to how that would affect me and my pay etc. I have stated several times in the past few weeks that I’m not adverse to being flexi furloughed, I just wanted all information surrounding it first. Am I being unreasonable in asking that?