Query around furlough agreement

unholyangel

FuzzyDuck1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

In addition to the above, whilst it is against the rules of the scheme to furlough employees without the correct documentation you have yo take into account that your employer will be furloughing you because of lack of work and funds. The alternative to the furlough scheme is redundancy, being a "difficult" employee might not be the wisest move.

Thank you. In this situation there’s been work throughout since 8th May 2020 and was furloughed for an afternoon in January 2021. The notice came through whilst on a job and no other details were received for example how that would affect pay for that afternoon. I completely understand your point about why they would do this during this time but it’s resulted in the rest of the months pay to be incorrect and struggling to get the employer to pay the amount. Was expecting 20% reduction on the 4 hours furlough which equates to approx £21 but was stopped £166! Having gone around in circles with the hr manager she keeps telling me to go back to the initial letter from back in March last year saying I’d agreed to accept less wages as a result. 

They can't furlough you on the same day. Because the agreement they need to be eligible to claim, needs to be made before the period they claim cjrs for. Cjrs claim periods work on days, not time of day. 

FuzzyDuck1

unholyangel said:

FuzzyDuck1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

In addition to the above, whilst it is against the rules of the scheme to furlough employees without the correct documentation you have yo take into account that your employer will be furloughing you because of lack of work and funds. The alternative to the furlough scheme is redundancy, being a "difficult" employee might not be the wisest move.

Thank you. In this situation there’s been work throughout since 8th May 2020 and was furloughed for an afternoon in January 2021. The notice came through whilst on a job and no other details were received for example how that would affect pay for that afternoon. I completely understand your point about why they would do this during this time but it’s resulted in the rest of the months pay to be incorrect and struggling to get the employer to pay the amount. Was expecting 20% reduction on the 4 hours furlough which equates to approx £21 but was stopped £166! Having gone around in circles with the hr manager she keeps telling me to go back to the initial letter from back in March last year saying I’d agreed to accept less wages as a result. 

They can't furlough you on the same day. Because the agreement they need to be eligible to claim, needs to be made before the period they claim cjrs for. Cjrs claim periods work on days, not time of day. 

Thank you... I’m a little confused by what you say here... 

The companies claim period for CJRS starts 1st to the last date in each calendar month. Flexi furlough agreement would cover them to claim for any hours not worked. But wasn’t aware there was an agreement after 31st May 2020 as that addendum to contract ended on that date.  Can I please ask you your source of information regarding being notified of furlough on the day for x amount of hours? I didn’t think it was reasonable notice. 

Jeremy535897

If your salary has remained unchanged since March 2020, I agree that the only impact of furlough should be 20% of the hourly rate for the 4 hours furloughed. Furlough is complex in the way it works, though, and the links I have provided go through all the steps they should have taken to calculate your furlough pay. If you are working for a full month, you should be paid your full salary for that month at your normal rate.

unholyangel

FuzzyDuck1 said:

unholyangel said:

FuzzyDuck1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

In addition to the above, whilst it is against the rules of the scheme to furlough employees without the correct documentation you have yo take into account that your employer will be furloughing you because of lack of work and funds. The alternative to the furlough scheme is redundancy, being a "difficult" employee might not be the wisest move.

Thank you. In this situation there’s been work throughout since 8th May 2020 and was furloughed for an afternoon in January 2021. The notice came through whilst on a job and no other details were received for example how that would affect pay for that afternoon. I completely understand your point about why they would do this during this time but it’s resulted in the rest of the months pay to be incorrect and struggling to get the employer to pay the amount. Was expecting 20% reduction on the 4 hours furlough which equates to approx £21 but was stopped £166! Having gone around in circles with the hr manager she keeps telling me to go back to the initial letter from back in March last year saying I’d agreed to accept less wages as a result. 

They can't furlough you on the same day. Because the agreement they need to be eligible to claim, needs to be made before the period they claim cjrs for. Cjrs claim periods work on days, not time of day. 

Thank you... I’m a little confused by what you say here... 

The companies claim period for CJRS starts 1st to the last date in each calendar month. Flexi furlough agreement would cover them to claim for any hours not worked. But wasn’t aware there was an agreement after 31st May 2020 as that addendum to contract ended on that date.  Can I please ask you your source of information regarding being notified of furlough on the day for x amount of hours? I didn’t think it was reasonable notice. 

The direction (aka the law behind cjrs) and what's involved in the claim process. 

They have to specify the dates of their claim. The law says the employer needs to get your agreement and the furlough agreement is supposed to include the conditions you're furloughed on including that you won't do any work or won't work your full hours, it must be made in writing and it must be made before the beginning of the period to which the cjrs claim relates and they need to retain that agreement (along with records of hours worked) for 5 years

So if they period they're claiming for starts on 20th, they need to have a written agreement in place before the 20th. They can't make an agreement on 20th as that's the period they're claiming for. 

The directions also state the written agreement can later be varied to reflect any changes made. Thereby indicating you cannot have one written agreement covering april-may and use that same agreement for January. You'd need a new written agreement to reflect the changes, including that it's Flexi furlough rather than no work at all - which is what your original furlough agreement should say since Flexi furlough didn't exist then. 

FuzzyDuck1

unholyangel said:

FuzzyDuck1 said:

unholyangel said:

FuzzyDuck1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

In addition to the above, whilst it is against the rules of the scheme to furlough employees without the correct documentation you have yo take into account that your employer will be furloughing you because of lack of work and funds. The alternative to the furlough scheme is redundancy, being a "difficult" employee might not be the wisest move.

Thank you. In this situation there’s been work throughout since 8th May 2020 and was furloughed for an afternoon in January 2021. The notice came through whilst on a job and no other details were received for example how that would affect pay for that afternoon. I completely understand your point about why they would do this during this time but it’s resulted in the rest of the months pay to be incorrect and struggling to get the employer to pay the amount. Was expecting 20% reduction on the 4 hours furlough which equates to approx £21 but was stopped £166! Having gone around in circles with the hr manager she keeps telling me to go back to the initial letter from back in March last year saying I’d agreed to accept less wages as a result. 

They can't furlough you on the same day. Because the agreement they need to be eligible to claim, needs to be made before the period they claim cjrs for. Cjrs claim periods work on days, not time of day. 

Thank you... I’m a little confused by what you say here... 

The companies claim period for CJRS starts 1st to the last date in each calendar month. Flexi furlough agreement would cover them to claim for any hours not worked. But wasn’t aware there was an agreement after 31st May 2020 as that addendum to contract ended on that date.  Can I please ask you your source of information regarding being notified of furlough on the day for x amount of hours? I didn’t think it was reasonable notice. 

The direction (aka the law behind cjrs) and what's involved in the claim process. 

They have to specify the dates of their claim. The law says the employer needs to get your agreement and the furlough agreement is supposed to include the conditions you're furloughed on including that you won't do any work or won't work your full hours, it must be made in writing and it must be made before the beginning of the period to which the cjrs claim relates and they need to retain that agreement (along with records of hours worked) for 5 years

So if they period they're claiming for starts on 20th, they need to have a written agreement in place before the 20th. They can't make an agreement on 20th as that's the period they're claiming for. 

The directions also state the written agreement can later be varied to reflect any changes made. Thereby indicating you cannot have one written agreement covering april-may and use that same agreement for January. You'd need a new written agreement to reflect the changes, including that it's Flexi furlough rather than no work at all - which is what your original furlough agreement should say since Flexi furlough didn't exist then. 

Thank you for clarifying in detail. This was my understanding from it all too. I think the employer has got confused with the “can claim for any hours unworked and doesn’t need to be a set shift pattern etc” with a flexi furlough agreement. I’d like to think this wasn’t being done deliberately by the company and just a misinterpretation of the rules. 

FuzzyDuck1

unholyangel said:

FuzzyDuck1 said:

unholyangel said:

FuzzyDuck1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

In addition to the above, whilst it is against the rules of the scheme to furlough employees without the correct documentation you have yo take into account that your employer will be furloughing you because of lack of work and funds. The alternative to the furlough scheme is redundancy, being a "difficult" employee might not be the wisest move.

Thank you. In this situation there’s been work throughout since 8th May 2020 and was furloughed for an afternoon in January 2021. The notice came through whilst on a job and no other details were received for example how that would affect pay for that afternoon. I completely understand your point about why they would do this during this time but it’s resulted in the rest of the months pay to be incorrect and struggling to get the employer to pay the amount. Was expecting 20% reduction on the 4 hours furlough which equates to approx £21 but was stopped £166! Having gone around in circles with the hr manager she keeps telling me to go back to the initial letter from back in March last year saying I’d agreed to accept less wages as a result. 

They can't furlough you on the same day. Because the agreement they need to be eligible to claim, needs to be made before the period they claim cjrs for. Cjrs claim periods work on days, not time of day. 

Thank you... I’m a little confused by what you say here... 

The companies claim period for CJRS starts 1st to the last date in each calendar month. Flexi furlough agreement would cover them to claim for any hours not worked. But wasn’t aware there was an agreement after 31st May 2020 as that addendum to contract ended on that date.  Can I please ask you your source of information regarding being notified of furlough on the day for x amount of hours? I didn’t think it was reasonable notice. 

The direction (aka the law behind cjrs) and what's involved in the claim process. 

They have to specify the dates of their claim. The law says the employer needs to get your agreement and the furlough agreement is supposed to include the conditions you're furloughed on including that you won't do any work or won't work your full hours, it must be made in writing and it must be made before the beginning of the period to which the cjrs claim relates and they need to retain that agreement (along with records of hours worked) for 5 years

So if they period they're claiming for starts on 20th, they need to have a written agreement in place before the 20th. They can't make an agreement on 20th as that's the period they're claiming for. 

The directions also state the written agreement can later be varied to reflect any changes made. Thereby indicating you cannot have one written agreement covering april-may and use that same agreement for January. You'd need a new written agreement to reflect the changes, including that it's Flexi furlough rather than no work at all - which is what your original furlough agreement should say since Flexi furlough didn't exist then. 

Thank you for this. Please see attached the company’s take on how they can use the scheme and the initial letter March 2020 attached. 

Jonesy1977

It is worth noting that your contract probably (I say probably because it is inferred in one of the letters) includes short time working and layoff clauses. This means that your company could reduce your hours or lay you off without full compensation if they chose to but they (like many others) are using CJRS as a way of reclaiming 80% of the cost of your salary when you are on short time hours off and passing that to you (not your total cost as this includes holidays and ENI at over 13% and pension contributions at x%) it is still costing the company significantly.  This may put the into context the tone of the recent letter that you have received, but of course does not address the calculations that you have made vs their calculations or the fact that you seem to be asserting that you are working full 40 hour weeks but not being being "flex furloughed" for a portion?  
Based on the response letter from your employer, I think that you need to send an email saying that you understand the companies position and you of course give consent for furlough and that you recognise and appreciate the steps taken to secure your (and others) jobs, but that you would like to query the calculations as the impact on you financially is more significant than you expected.  Hopefully you can then understand how the calculation was made and whether it is correct or otherwise. 
Good luck!

FuzzyDuck1

Jonesy1977 said:

It is worth noting that your contract probably (I say probably because it is inferred in one of the letters) includes short time working and layoff clauses. This means that your company could reduce your hours or lay you off without full compensation if they chose to but they (like many others) are using CJRS as a way of reclaiming 80% of the cost of your salary when you are on short time hours off and passing that to you (not your total cost as this includes holidays and ENI at over 13% and pension contributions at x%) it is still costing the company significantly.  This may put the into context the tone of the recent letter that you have received, but of course does not address the calculations that you have made vs their calculations or the fact that you seem to be asserting that you are working full 40 hour weeks but not being being "flex furloughed" for a portion?  
Based on the response letter from your employer, I think that you need to send an email saying that you understand the companies position and you of course give consent for furlough and that you recognise and appreciate the steps taken to secure your (and others) jobs, but that you would like to query the calculations as the impact on you financially is more significant than you expected.  Hopefully you can then understand how the calculation was made and whether it is correct or otherwise. 
Good luck!

Thank you. I have said to the company that I’m not adverse to being Flexi furloughed for the reasons you outlined above but in this instance I was furloughed on the job with 5 minutes notice (exactly 5 minutes notice) for the afternoon via an internal system which didn’t give me any details surrounding how that would affect my pay etc only notification that they were furloughing me for 4 hours. So I expected to pick up my monthly salary minus 20% for the 4 hours they claimed furlough. 

The company sent me their breakdown attached. My usual hours are 174 per month as I get paid an equal amount each month. I understand they need to figure out working hours vs furloughed hours for HMRC. However they run the payroll 20th January and calculated I’d worked 100 hours between 1st and 20th January and furloughed 4hours totalling 104 hours. I get paid for bank holiday 1st Jan and therefore including these bank holiday hours it’s 112 hours required for the calculation. 

I have to log a ticket to raise any dispute or further dispute and the last 2 I raised asking for further clarification as our figures don’t match have been closed down and nobody willing to discuss this further.  

Please see attached and advise if you can see who is right here. 

Thank you for your help it really is appreciated immensely. Losing sleep over this now. 

Jeremy535897

The method of calculating furlough is very complex, and the links I provide demonstrate this. The initial letter you received was unsatisfactory, in that it said you will receive 80% of your pay while furloughed, with the caveat that the method of calculation was yet to be provided by the government. They are relying on this to pay you whatever the CJRS rules (in their opinion) provide, and these can have bizarre results for tiny amounts of furlough. The scheme was not designed for this (although flexi furlough can last any length of time, it is normally supposed to last at least a week).

There are a number of areas that you will have pointed out already, including the principal issue that they have no followed their own procedures on any furlough after 8 May, so should not be furloughing you at all. They might also have difficulty in showing that a 4 hour furlough is as a result of coronavirus (unless for example a job was cancelled due to coronavirus). The trouble is that they have mentioned short time working before, and they may just default to that.

FuzzyDuck1

Thank you Jeremy. I see your point in your last sentence. I struggle to see how they can pay furlough for the 4 hours through the scheme though then say I was short timed at any other point in the month where I worked 8 hours per day every day of the entire month other than the 4 hours they furloughed... based on that do you think they still have a valid argument cuz ultimately I’d not been “short timed “ if I actually worked. Thank you. Again your help is much appreciated.