Are we allowed to return a computer chair?

julie777

CANNOT RETURN UNCOMFORTABLE COMPUTER CHAIR
Please can anyone advise us on this. We bought a computer chair online for £140 from Wayfair. Having put it together we find it is uncomfortable and the headrest is too low even though the user is only 5'9". The company says we cannot return it because it has to go back in the original box. It is IMPOSSIBLE to do that because it is constructed in such a way that you cannot later separate the legs from the seat. We ordered on 24th Jan. Tesco Credit card say it is not faulty or damaged so they cannot help. 
Please let us know if you can suggest a course of action? Or perhaps you know what the law says?
Many thanks.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

The exceptions to the right to cancel your contract within the minimum timeframes (typically 14 days beginning the day after delivery*) are here:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/28/made

which I won't bother to paste as none of them are that the product doesn't go back in the box and thus the retailer is not permitted to refuse your right to withdraw from the contract.

The requirements for them refunding you include:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/34/made

(9) If (in the case of a sales contract) the value of the goods is diminished by any amount as a result of handling of the goods by the consumer beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods, the trader may recover that amount from the consumer, up to the contract price.

(10) An amount that may be recovered under paragraph (9)—

(a)may be deducted from the amount to be reimbursed under paragraph (1);

(b)otherwise, must be paid by the consumer to the trader.

(11) Paragraph (9) does not apply if the trader has failed to provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

(12) For the purposes of paragraph (9) handling is beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods if, in particular, it goes beyond the sort of handling that might reasonably be allowed in a shop.

Many would argue that your handling has gone beyond what is typically available in a shop although it could be argued that you are unable to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods without putting them together.

Either way paragraph 11 is most notable and the retailer should have provided you via durable means (email, excluding links to their website, or on paper) the following:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/schedule/2/made

(l) where a right to cancel exists, the conditions, time limit and procedures for exercising that right in accordance with regulations 27 to 38;

which should include that they will make a deduction for excessive handing if they wish to do so where permitted, if they fail to state so then they may not impose a deduction.

Wayfair are a company who state your statutory rights apply but fail to detail what those rights on their website so you will need to refer to the durable information provided.

*They offer a 30 day return policy which is in addition to your statutory rights and can impose conditions, however if they fail to provide the information above in (l) of schedule 2 then the timeframes for cancelling the contract are:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/31/made 

31.—(1) This regulation applies if the trader does not provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

(2) If the trader provides the consumer with that information in the period of 12 months beginning with the first day of the 14 days mentioned in regulation 30(2) to (6), but otherwise in accordance with Part 2, the cancellation period ends at the end of 14 days after the consumer receives the information.

(3) Otherwise the cancellation period ends at the end of 12 months after the day on which it would have ended under regulation 30.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

To put it more simply when did you take delivery and what information did you get by email or on paper about your right to cancel? 

Jenni_D

The above is correct. They cannot refuse to take back online goods for change of mind. If the seller has complied with their legal obligations then they can deduct a reasonable amount from the refund (up to 100%) for the loss of value to the goods caused by the consumer's handling of them. If the seller has not complied with their legal obligations then a) they still cannot refuse to take the goods back, and b) they cannot make any deductions from the refund.

Getting a seller to comply with the law is the challenging part. If you're sure of your position (re. the above) then you could raise a Section 75 claim with Tesco CC - you might need to get past the first line call handler though.

powerful_Rogue

julie777 said:

CANNOT RETURN UNCOMFORTABLE COMPUTER CHAIR
Please can anyone advise us on this. We bought a computer chair online for £140 from Wayfair. Having put it together we find it is uncomfortable and the headrest is too low even though the user is only 5'9". The company says we cannot return it because it has to go back in the original box. It is IMPOSSIBLE to do that because it is constructed in such a way that you cannot later separate the legs from the seat. We ordered on 24th Jan. Tesco Credit card say it is not faulty or damaged so they cannot help. 
Please let us know if you can suggest a course of action? Or perhaps you know what the law says?
Many thanks.

If they have complied with the law, which looking at thier t&c's I would say is most certainly a given - Have you worked out how much it's going to cost you to get the chair back to them in it's unpacked and built state?

I also imagine the refund would have a fair % deducted as the would have to try and sell a used pre built chair, with the additinal postage costs

Manxman_in_exile

(The following is assuming the OP is within the statutory "change of mind" period)

I don't see how you can ".establish the nature, characteristics and functioning..." of a chair that has been bought online as self-assembly without actually assembling it - so I don't think any arguments about excessive handling reducing the value of the chair would have any validity.  If you were buying instore - as opposed to online - the first thing you would do is try it for size, check if it's comfortable and try all the adjustments.  You can only do all these things that you would normally do instore after you've assembled the online product at home.

(We had a similar problem back in April with a rowing m/c my wife bought.  Once we had assembled it and had both tried it my wife declared it was not satisfactory or fit for pupose - she is a "proper" rower - although it wasn't faulty in any way.  Initially the supplier argued that they would reduce any change of mind refund “if the item has been used or opened, a minimum of 20% will be deducted from your refund upon evaluation of the item”.  Several posters here declared that we had used it too much for a full refund, but when my wife challenged  the supplier they backed down and gave her a full refund.  We disassembled the m/c and put it back in the original box - which we'd kept.  It took ages to take apart and fit back in the box correctly.  https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6133694/rowing-m-c-return-online-purchase-unnecessary-handling/p1)

So - I would say that the fact the OP has assembled the chair does not amount to excessive handling and should not be a bar to getting a full refund.  And neither should not having the original box - which as the_lunatic says is not a lawful reason not to refund.  I don't really understand why the OP cannot disassemble the chair and use their own packing material - or demand something suitable from the supplier.  If they've assembled it, surely they can disassemble it?  It took us a good couple of hours to take the rowing m/c apart and pack it away - but we did it.

Oh - I'd also just ask the OP if they've tried to adjust the headrest.   

EDIT:  If the OP really can't take the legs off the chair, I'd say that's the supplier's problem as they've chosen to sell that product online without taking account of the buyer's right to cancel for any - or indeed no - reason within 14 days.  If you buy a self-assembly product online, you have to assemble it to establish its nature and function.  Although I'm sure others will disagree.

powerful_Rogue

Manxman_in_exile said:

I don't see how you can ".establish the nature, characteristics and functioning..." of a chair that has been bought online as self-assembly without actually assembling it - so I don't think any arguments about excessive handling reducing the value of the chair would have any validity.  If you were buying instore - as opposed to online - the first thing you would do is try it for size, check if it's comfortable and try all the adjustments.  You can only do all these things that you would normally do instore after you've assembled the online product at home.

(We had a similar problem back in April with a rowing m/c my wife bought.  Once we had assembled it and had both tried it my wife declared it was not satisfactory or fit for pupose - she is a "proper" rower - although it wasn't faulty in any way.  Initially the supplier argued that they would reduce any change of mind refund “if the item has been used or opened, a minimum of 20% will be deducted from your refund upon evaluation of the item”.  Several posters here declared that we had used it too much for a full refund, but when my wife challenged  the supplier they backed down and gave her a full refund.  We disassembled the m/c and put it back in the original box - which we'd kept.  It took ages to take apart and fit back in the box correctly.  https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6133694/rowing-m-c-return-online-purchase-unnecessary-handling/p1)

So - I would say that the fact the OP has assembled the chair does not amount to excessive handling and should not be a bar to getting a full refund.  And neither should not having the original box - which as the_lunatic says is not a lawful reason not to refund.  I don't really understand why the OP cannot disassemble the chair and use their own packing material - or demand something suitable from the supplier.  If they've assembled it, surely they can disassemble it?  It took us a good couple of hours to take the rowing m/c apart and pack it away - but we did it.

Oh - I'd also just ask the OP if they've tried to adjust the headrest.   

(All this is assuming they're within the statutory "change of mind" period)

Hello retailer, I want to send this chair back which I can't disassemble. I also demand that you send me some packaging as I have thrown it away. I then require a full refund.

Diamandis

powerful_Rogue said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

I don't see how you can ".establish the nature, characteristics and functioning..." of a chair that has been bought online as self-assembly without actually assembling it - so I don't think any arguments about excessive handling reducing the value of the chair would have any validity.  If you were buying instore - as opposed to online - the first thing you would do is try it for size, check if it's comfortable and try all the adjustments.  You can only do all these things that you would normally do instore after you've assembled the online product at home.

(We had a similar problem back in April with a rowing m/c my wife bought.  Once we had assembled it and had both tried it my wife declared it was not satisfactory or fit for pupose - she is a "proper" rower - although it wasn't faulty in any way.  Initially the supplier argued that they would reduce any change of mind refund “if the item has been used or opened, a minimum of 20% will be deducted from your refund upon evaluation of the item”.  Several posters here declared that we had used it too much for a full refund, but when my wife challenged  the supplier they backed down and gave her a full refund.  We disassembled the m/c and put it back in the original box - which we'd kept.  It took ages to take apart and fit back in the box correctly.  https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6133694/rowing-m-c-return-online-purchase-unnecessary-handling/p1)

So - I would say that the fact the OP has assembled the chair does not amount to excessive handling and should not be a bar to getting a full refund.  And neither should not having the original box - which as the_lunatic says is not a lawful reason not to refund.  I don't really understand why the OP cannot disassemble the chair and use their own packing material - or demand something suitable from the supplier.  If they've assembled it, surely they can disassemble it?  It took us a good couple of hours to take the rowing m/c apart and pack it away - but we did it.

Oh - I'd also just ask the OP if they've tried to adjust the headrest.   

(All this is assuming they're within the statutory "change of mind" period)

Hello retailer, I want to send this chair back which I can't disassemble. I also demand that you send me some packaging as I have thrown it away. I then require a full refund.

You can demand all you want, doesn't mean they're gonna do it.

theonlywayisup

Diamandis said:

powerful_Rogue said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

I don't see how you can ".establish the nature, characteristics and functioning..." of a chair that has been bought online as self-assembly without actually assembling it - so I don't think any arguments about excessive handling reducing the value of the chair would have any validity.  If you were buying instore - as opposed to online - the first thing you would do is try it for size, check if it's comfortable and try all the adjustments.  You can only do all these things that you would normally do instore after you've assembled the online product at home.

(We had a similar problem back in April with a rowing m/c my wife bought.  Once we had assembled it and had both tried it my wife declared it was not satisfactory or fit for pupose - she is a "proper" rower - although it wasn't faulty in any way.  Initially the supplier argued that they would reduce any change of mind refund “if the item has been used or opened, a minimum of 20% will be deducted from your refund upon evaluation of the item”.  Several posters here declared that we had used it too much for a full refund, but when my wife challenged  the supplier they backed down and gave her a full refund.  We disassembled the m/c and put it back in the original box - which we'd kept.  It took ages to take apart and fit back in the box correctly.  https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6133694/rowing-m-c-return-online-purchase-unnecessary-handling/p1)

So - I would say that the fact the OP has assembled the chair does not amount to excessive handling and should not be a bar to getting a full refund.  And neither should not having the original box - which as the_lunatic says is not a lawful reason not to refund.  I don't really understand why the OP cannot disassemble the chair and use their own packing material - or demand something suitable from the supplier.  If they've assembled it, surely they can disassemble it?  It took us a good couple of hours to take the rowing m/c apart and pack it away - but we did it.

Oh - I'd also just ask the OP if they've tried to adjust the headrest.   

(All this is assuming they're within the statutory "change of mind" period)

Hello retailer, I want to send this chair back which I can't disassemble. I also demand that you send me some packaging as I have thrown it away. I then require a full refund.

You can demand all you want, doesn't mean they're gonna do it.

You know that wasn't the op? 

Manxman_in_exile

powerful_Rogue said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

I don't see how you can ".establish the nature, characteristics and functioning..." of a chair that has been bought online as self-assembly without actually assembling it - so I don't think any arguments about excessive handling reducing the value of the chair would have any validity.  If you were buying instore - as opposed to online - the first thing you would do is try it for size, check if it's comfortable and try all the adjustments.  You can only do all these things that you would normally do instore after you've assembled the online product at home.

(We had a similar problem back in April with a rowing m/c my wife bought.  Once we had assembled it and had both tried it my wife declared it was not satisfactory or fit for pupose - she is a "proper" rower - although it wasn't faulty in any way.  Initially the supplier argued that they would reduce any change of mind refund “if the item has been used or opened, a minimum of 20% will be deducted from your refund upon evaluation of the item”.  Several posters here declared that we had used it too much for a full refund, but when my wife challenged  the supplier they backed down and gave her a full refund.  We disassembled the m/c and put it back in the original box - which we'd kept.  It took ages to take apart and fit back in the box correctly.  https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6133694/rowing-m-c-return-online-purchase-unnecessary-handling/p1)

So - I would say that the fact the OP has assembled the chair does not amount to excessive handling and should not be a bar to getting a full refund.  And neither should not having the original box - which as the_lunatic says is not a lawful reason not to refund.  I don't really understand why the OP cannot disassemble the chair and use their own packing material - or demand something suitable from the supplier.  If they've assembled it, surely they can disassemble it?  It took us a good couple of hours to take the rowing m/c apart and pack it away - but we did it.

Oh - I'd also just ask the OP if they've tried to adjust the headrest.   

(All this is assuming they're within the statutory "change of mind" period)

Hello retailer, I want to send this chair back which I can't disassemble. I also demand that you send me some packaging as I have thrown it away. I then require a full refund.

I'm not particularly bothered about the packaging bit as I find it hard to believe that the OP and their partner can't remove the legs from the chair.  If they've assembled it I'm sure they can take it apart and get it packed up for return to Wayfair.  If they can't then they need to discuss this with Wayfair so that a solution can be reached allowing them to exercise their statutory rights.

I'm more concerned about (1) pointing out that the original packaging is irrelevant and that (2) assembling a self-assembly chair and trying it out is the only way to establish its nature, characteristics and functioning, and does not amount to excessive/unnecessary handling warranting a reduction in the refund, because it's simply allowing the purchaser to do what they would naturally do in a shop.

So yes - they are entitled to a full refund, and if the chair is designed so it can't be disassembled, that does not reduce the refund.  Wayfair can't get round the consumer's right by arguing that the item is reduced in value because the product is poorly designed.  (If Wayfair want to prevent a reduction in value they need to source better products)

I'm happy to accept that the OP might have to pay for the return, but that doesn't affect the value of the refund for the chair - except insofar as Wayfair arrange it and deduct the cost from the refund.  The OP needs to work with Wayfair to sort out a reasonable way of doing this.

powerful_Rogue

Manxman_in_exile said:

powerful_Rogue said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

I don't see how you can ".establish the nature, characteristics and functioning..." of a chair that has been bought online as self-assembly without actually assembling it - so I don't think any arguments about excessive handling reducing the value of the chair would have any validity.  If you were buying instore - as opposed to online - the first thing you would do is try it for size, check if it's comfortable and try all the adjustments.  You can only do all these things that you would normally do instore after you've assembled the online product at home.

(We had a similar problem back in April with a rowing m/c my wife bought.  Once we had assembled it and had both tried it my wife declared it was not satisfactory or fit for pupose - she is a "proper" rower - although it wasn't faulty in any way.  Initially the supplier argued that they would reduce any change of mind refund “if the item has been used or opened, a minimum of 20% will be deducted from your refund upon evaluation of the item”.  Several posters here declared that we had used it too much for a full refund, but when my wife challenged  the supplier they backed down and gave her a full refund.  We disassembled the m/c and put it back in the original box - which we'd kept.  It took ages to take apart and fit back in the box correctly.  https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6133694/rowing-m-c-return-online-purchase-unnecessary-handling/p1)

So - I would say that the fact the OP has assembled the chair does not amount to excessive handling and should not be a bar to getting a full refund.  And neither should not having the original box - which as the_lunatic says is not a lawful reason not to refund.  I don't really understand why the OP cannot disassemble the chair and use their own packing material - or demand something suitable from the supplier.  If they've assembled it, surely they can disassemble it?  It took us a good couple of hours to take the rowing m/c apart and pack it away - but we did it.

Oh - I'd also just ask the OP if they've tried to adjust the headrest.   

(All this is assuming they're within the statutory "change of mind" period)

Hello retailer, I want to send this chair back which I can't disassemble. I also demand that you send me some packaging as I have thrown it away. I then require a full refund.

I'm not particularly bothered about the packaging bit as I find it hard to believe that the OP and their partner can't remove the legs from the chair.  If they've assembled it I'm sure they can take it apart and get it packed up for return to Wayfair.  If they can't then they need to discuss this with Wayfair so that a solution can be reached allowing them to exercise their statutory rights.

I'm more concerned about (1) pointing out that the original packaging is irrelevant and that (2) assembling a self-assembly chair and trying it out is the only way to establish its nature, characteristics and functioning, and does not amount to excessive/unnecessary handling warranting a reduction in the refund, because it's simply allowing the purchaser to do what they would naturally do in a shop.

So yes - they are entitled to a full refund, and if the chair is designed so it can't be disassembled, that does not reduce the refund.  Wayfair can't get round the consumer's right by arguing that the item is reduced in value because the product is poorly designed.  (If Wayfair want to prevent a reduction in value they need to source better products)

I'm happy to accept that the OP might have to pay for the return, but that doesn't affect the value of the refund for the chair - except insofar as Wayfair arrange it and deduct the cost from the refund.  The OP needs to work with Wayfair to sort out a reasonable way of doing this.

I disagree. Luckily that is why we have judges.

By all means test something out as per the legislation, however if you can't return it as you received it, then yes, you should have a % taken from the overall refund.

If I then bought the same chair from retailer, I don't want it turning up partly assembled without the correct packaging. I pay for new, I expect new.