DCBL/UKPC - County Court Claim

Deejj

Hi folks
As a preface to this, yes I've read the Newbies Parking Threads, and this is not about the process as such. I've got some other questions that I'd value some thoughts on.
As a quick summary, I've been one of the lucky many to receive a DCB Limited debt collection letter relating to a UKPC alleged parking fine in mid 2016. The alleged parking fine relates to parking on a site that supposedly required a permit without a permit. Between the day of the windscreen ticket and the DCBL letter at the weekend, zero correspondence has been sent from UKPC or any of their debt collection companies.
Re the car park: The parking site had no pay machines, and did not require payment. The provided parking permits were free of charge for permanent staff, and the daily temporary ones were a photocopied piece of paper (with no reference numbers etc).  The carpark was rarely fully occupied (if memory serves).

1. So first question - what is the loss?
   My (rusty) understanding of contract law is that for a person to successfully claim a breach of contract, there must have been a "loss". UKPC would have to prove that there was a loss due to the breach, and then prove that the nature of the loss would lead to compensation. There was no requirement to pay for a permit, and literally the only condition of parking was to "have" a permit. The car park was rarely fully occupied, meaning that spaces were still available, and therefore not preventing a supposed loss to UKPC.
   The parking fine in itself does not constitute a loss; that is the penalty for an alleged breach of contract. 
   I see no identifiable loss; which would make a "breach of contract" claim. Does that in itself mean the claim falls entirely?
2. Second part - I noticed the "PCN" number on the letter, so looked at the UKPC website and managed to access the photos they took. They are small and of dreadful quality. The picture of the sign cannot be read at all, and the vehicle pictures are on a poor quality camera.
   The pictures are all c19.9KB each, 300x400 pixels with 24bit depth.
   Are they likely to hold better quality pictures, or is this the extent of the quality?
3. Original Handling - unfortunately these crooked parking fines were (and still are) a common occurrence for that particular location. At the time, I called UKPC and pointed out that I had a valid permit afixed to the windscreen. The terrible photos do show a coloured circle on the windscreen which was the permit. In itself; their claim failed and was invalid. They agreed that it was an error and said "we'll cancel the ticket". I heard no more and that was it; as far as I knew.
   This in itself will be enough to stop any claim; but my concern is that contacting UKPC as others have done will result in the standard "not our problem" response.
   I've noticed that the alleged infraction is "parking in a permit area without"; not specifically that one must display it. The signage also makes no reference to displaying a permit; just that one must have one. 
   Of course I cannot prove that I had a permit now, as I have no records of it. The only things I have is the blue dot on their photos, and a photograph of a current parking permit taken by a good friend who still works there for comparison purposes. Is that in itself an issue?
4. GDPR - Given that this allegedly occurred almost 5 years ago, I neither work for the organisation concerned, have been back to the site, nor even own the relevant car. Naturally I don't still have the permit or any correspondence relating to it. As good employers, they have long since expunged any non financial data as per GDPR (and prior data retention/destruction requirements). 
   Given the third part about them pursuing a false claim; should they not have deleted all data relating to the ticket a number of years ago to comply with GDPR?
5. Question about mail redirections. I'm about to move house, and whilst the cowboys have my current address, they are unlikely (?) to follow up to my new address. As always, I would put a 12-24 month mail redirection in place. Given that they have still have another 16(ish) months under limitation act to pursue a county court claim, I have concern that proceedings could be issued post-move. Does anyone know if mail redirections work for County Court documentation, or is it one of those odd exceptions of "do not redirect"?

I realise I've asked a lot of questions, and have searched the forum for similar points, but couldn't find anything related.
I'd value thoughts and guidance, and thanks in advance for your time.

Coupon-mad

So first question - what is the loss?
My (rusty) understanding of contract law is ...

...sadly, no longer correct in the context of parking charges.   Read ParkingEye v Beavis (Supreme Court).  Very well known case law from 2015.

Umkomaas

Are they likely to hold better quality pictures

Unlikely. You could ask for a SAR to reveal all photos they hold of your vehicle. 

Of course I cannot prove that I had a permit now, as I have no records of it.

It's their case to prove. The permit issuer might have a record. 

Given the third part about them pursuing a false claim; should they not have deleted all data relating to the ticket a number of years ago to comply with GDPR?

Not when they believe they have a claim against you.  The ICO will be better able to answer your question. 

Does anyone know if mail redirections work for County Court documentation, or is it one of those odd exceptions of "do not redirect"?

Highly unlikely, documentation comes in a standard, unremarkable envelope.  How would that be distinguished?  But check with the Royal Mail if you're so concerned. 

This is at debt collection stage. My guess as to how far this might go - not much further than a silly letter chase. Only come back if you get a DCB Legal letter, otherwise you are consuming too much mental energy on too many 'what ifs'. 

IT'S NOT A 'FINE'! 😡 

beamerguy

Deejj said:

Hi folks

As a quick summary, I've been one of the lucky many to receive a DCB Limited debt collection letter relating to a UKPC alleged parking fine in mid 2016. 

There is a group thread running and you are advised to continue here. 
DCBL letters ... forum group thread
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6237177/dcbl-letters-forum-group-thread#latest

Regarding UKPC signs, they are terrible. The BPA should be ashamed they allow their members to farm car parks with such rubbish

A standard UKPC sign

D_P_Dance

Those T& C are rather lengthy.  they also seem to be about 8 feet up.   Is it reasonable to expect people to read all that lot before they pop into Tesco for a pint of milk?

Read this and complain to your MP.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5972164/parking-eye-signs-oxford-road-reading

Ralph-y

when you move email the DPO at UKPC telling them your new address and to erase your old one ... use these words

Ralph

Deejj

Thanks everyone - that gives me some really good pointers for the "not a" fine  .

Deejj

Hi folks; a quick update and a question or two please.

Edited the thread title to "invoice" appropriately.

I've been tracking the continuous stream of increasingly threatening letters from DCBL; with their latest "Final Demand"; so I expect the LBC any day now.

In anticipation of the LBC, I've been gathering evidence and have 95% completed my defence/witness statement documents. Ignoring the clear-cut case of false-issued-invoice, the signage is appalling/not visible and all the other usual stuff in the template defence applies (thank you to the collective for creating this!!).

I have not written to the landowner. I did the research to trace, and it turns out to be a shell company who don't respond to correspondence on this matter. The usual "I won't return" letter has no effect. The location is an office building; and the "employer" doesn't involve themselves with the matter; despite a large number of their staff and visitors having had this issue. 

I considered complaining to my MP, but they have shown to be completely uninterested in constituents; one of those MPs who doesn't need to do anything to be voted in every time. 

I've noted the process in terms of what to do on receipt of LBC - the SAR and the letter about debt advice. The thread at https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822/newbies-private-parking-ticket-old-or-new-read-these-faqs-first-thankyou is phenomenally helpful, and you guys are fantastic for creating this.

What I'm not clear on (and please forgive me if I've not understood it); is whether I have to send anything else to the solicitor at the LBC stage. Do I reject their claim in writing (and say why), or do I do the SAR/debt advice letters and leave it at that?

Grateful as before for clarification.

nosferatu1001

Yep, but remember ther differenence in "L" - limited and legal are NOT the same entity. DCB Ltd or DCB Legal. do not shorten their name further, otherwise it is ambiguous.
You deny the debt, 30 days to solicitort
SAR to the PPC
Those are your two responses. 

Deejj

Thanks. That was the clarity I was after.  And for assurance, so far everything is from "Ltd"; but take you point about being clearer. Once I get to the defence stage, I'll post on here (redacted of course) and seek your good advice again if I may.

Deejj

As advised in the other thread, have posted the update here.
Hi everyone, I've had the the "letter of claim" from DCB Legal Ltd. 

I've already requested the SAR back in March, so have the full details. Defence/Witness statement were drafted around the same time in prep (and tweaked over the months).

I've sent them the advised response for the 30 days (did it around day 10).

I've got a question if I may please? Should I write to them telling them to call it off as they have no case?

Beyond the obvious ones, my reason for this is thus:

1. The parking invoice is issued for an address & postcode over a mile from the location of the alleged breach of contract. The two sites have different addresses, different conditions on the sign and also very obviously different management companies.
2. Their own photos from the SAR show clearly the existence of the required permit.

I'm thinking that such a letter would also be useful to produce at the hearing to demonstrate that I had attempted to avoid wasting court time with a frivolous case.