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Stanmer Park Brighton, Private parking fine...
Seagull-Stripes
Posts: 42 Forumite
Hi there guys. I've read the newbies thread and I think I'm pretty well versed in the early days of the appeals process. Just got a little curve ball thrown my way, (I think).
Very quick rundown.
The car is on a private lease contract.
Sun 3rd Jan.
Parked on a grass verge in Stanmer Park, a council run public park. Got a ticket. FWIW, many other vehicles were parked the same.
Appealed around 13 days later as per the advice on the newbies thread using a combination of some of the templates. (I really wanted to give them loads to read and hope that they then couldn't be bothered to fight this one as I appeared ).
Here's the text I wrote if you are interested:
Dear Sir/Madam
Re: PCN No. OPS****
I challenge this 'PCN' as lessee of the car and subsequently request all future correspondence be sent directly to myself at the address provided on the appeals form.
I am the vehicle's hirer and keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definitions under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) now it is proven that in this instance, the registered keeper is not the "keeper" (as defined under POFA), OPS has no reason to contact the leasing firm regarding this PCN.
I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence. Your unremarkable signs were not seen, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers. See image 4.
I would also state that the penalty charge sums that you require to be paid are ridiculously disproportionate to any loss that may have incurred during the period parked as noted on the PCN and I would like to know how that sum is calculated. Furthermore I would to state that I believe no loss had occurred to anyone during the stay.
I understand you do not own the premises and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.
In addition, I have a few questions which I would like to ask should you decide to reject my appeal.
To begin our discussions, as this is purely a claim under a purported contract, and you have no statutory footing to issue penalties, I wish to make you aware of the following details and require the specific information so that I can assess the validity of your claim:
Who is the party that contracted with OPS for the provision of their services at the site of the alleged to have taken place in Stanmer Park, Brighton?
2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
3. As you are not the landowner, please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that OPS have the authority of the landowner to both issue parking charges and legislate in your own name or on behalf of the landowner.
4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? - Yes or no?
5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract, please provide justification of this sum.
6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? - Yes or no?
7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please, provide a valid VAT invoice as you make no mention on VAT in any correspondence.
8. The signage to the site (from a seated position in the vehicle as it enters the car park is impossible to read. You have provided photographic evidence of the sign on the appeals form which proves this. Most of the wording on the close up photo is difficult to read so how is someone who is driving through a park and looking where they are going is supposed to read all of that. See image 4. Difficult to read from distance and whilst driving.
9. There are many breaches made during the process of carrying out your business as defined in the following document of which I’m absolutely certain would result in a positive court defence outcome on our behalf should you wish to take it that far.
Link: http://nebula.wsimg.com/e3da92cb966c72de63ec1f98605c2954?AccessKeyId=4CB8F2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
At this stage, you must either offer me a POPLA code or cancel the charge.
Note: I have contacted the landowner to strongly protest in writing the basis for this PCN.
Re: PCN No. OPS****
I challenge this 'PCN' as lessee of the car and subsequently request all future correspondence be sent directly to myself at the address provided on the appeals form.
I am the vehicle's hirer and keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definitions under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) now it is proven that in this instance, the registered keeper is not the "keeper" (as defined under POFA), OPS has no reason to contact the leasing firm regarding this PCN.
I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence. Your unremarkable signs were not seen, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers. See image 4.
I would also state that the penalty charge sums that you require to be paid are ridiculously disproportionate to any loss that may have incurred during the period parked as noted on the PCN and I would like to know how that sum is calculated. Furthermore I would to state that I believe no loss had occurred to anyone during the stay.
I understand you do not own the premises and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.
In addition, I have a few questions which I would like to ask should you decide to reject my appeal.
To begin our discussions, as this is purely a claim under a purported contract, and you have no statutory footing to issue penalties, I wish to make you aware of the following details and require the specific information so that I can assess the validity of your claim:
Who is the party that contracted with OPS for the provision of their services at the site of the alleged to have taken place in Stanmer Park, Brighton?
2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
3. As you are not the landowner, please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that OPS have the authority of the landowner to both issue parking charges and legislate in your own name or on behalf of the landowner.
4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? - Yes or no?
5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract, please provide justification of this sum.
6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? - Yes or no?
7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please, provide a valid VAT invoice as you make no mention on VAT in any correspondence.
8. The signage to the site (from a seated position in the vehicle as it enters the car park is impossible to read. You have provided photographic evidence of the sign on the appeals form which proves this. Most of the wording on the close up photo is difficult to read so how is someone who is driving through a park and looking where they are going is supposed to read all of that. See image 4. Difficult to read from distance and whilst driving.
9. There are many breaches made during the process of carrying out your business as defined in the following document of which I’m absolutely certain would result in a positive court defence outcome on our behalf should you wish to take it that far.
Link: http://nebula.wsimg.com/e3da92cb966c72de63ec1f98605c2954?AccessKeyId=4CB8F2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
At this stage, you must either offer me a POPLA code or cancel the charge.
Note: I have contacted the landowner to strongly protest in writing the basis for this PCN.
Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.
Yours faithfully,
They have now contacted me back stating that I cannot appeal as I need authorisation from the keeper.... Er.... Have I not already provided that in my initial appeal?
Is it just a simple email back saying that I am the keeper and that they should accept my appeal or have they cocked up by not accepting the appeal in the first place?
Here is their response:
Thank you for your correspondence.
We are sorry but we are unable to accept an appeal from a third party as only the registered keeper or
driver of a vehicle may appeal a parking charge. If you are appealing on behalf of the registered keeper
or driver, please provide a letter of authority confirming you may liaise with One Parking Solution Ltd.
If you cannot provide a letter of authority, please inform the motorist they must submit the appeal
themselves.
The Parking Charge Notice provides information on how to appeal either through the portal on our
website or by registered post.
The motorist will need to confirm if they were the driver of the vehicle, their full name and postal address
and the circumstance of the event. If the motorist submits an appeal by 21 February 2021 it will be
considered to have been submitted on the day you submitted your correspondence and the discounted
rate, if applicable, will be reset and put on hold until the appeal has been reviewed.
Please note if an appeal has already been submitted through our portal, it will not be available again and
all of the required information should be sent by email to: aai@oneparking.co.uk.
Please be assured, your comments have been noted and should the motorist submit an appeal they will
be considered as part of the evidence.
If the motorist does not submit an appeal, the parking charge notice will continue to progress to the next
stage in the process.
This may involve seeking keeper details from the DVLA and/or instructing a debt recovery agent which
may involve additional costs.
With Regards,
We are sorry but we are unable to accept an appeal from a third party as only the registered keeper or
driver of a vehicle may appeal a parking charge. If you are appealing on behalf of the registered keeper
or driver, please provide a letter of authority confirming you may liaise with One Parking Solution Ltd.
If you cannot provide a letter of authority, please inform the motorist they must submit the appeal
themselves.
The Parking Charge Notice provides information on how to appeal either through the portal on our
website or by registered post.
The motorist will need to confirm if they were the driver of the vehicle, their full name and postal address
and the circumstance of the event. If the motorist submits an appeal by 21 February 2021 it will be
considered to have been submitted on the day you submitted your correspondence and the discounted
rate, if applicable, will be reset and put on hold until the appeal has been reviewed.
Please note if an appeal has already been submitted through our portal, it will not be available again and
all of the required information should be sent by email to: aai@oneparking.co.uk.
Please be assured, your comments have been noted and should the motorist submit an appeal they will
be considered as part of the evidence.
If the motorist does not submit an appeal, the parking charge notice will continue to progress to the next
stage in the process.
This may involve seeking keeper details from the DVLA and/or instructing a debt recovery agent which
may involve additional costs.
With Regards,
I will definitely not reply stating who the driver was. I'm assuming that I just email back saying that I am definitely the keeper and I'm saving them a job going to the DVLA.
Incidentally, the one previous time I got one of these, they found our details via DVLA and Arval, the leasing company. Arval then charged an admin fee to provide the details. This wasn't a massive charge but I'm just to save this process.
Cheers in advance...
S-S
0
Comments
-
Interesting that they won't accept any appeal from a hirer or lessee keeper
There is no requirement to name the driver , at any time
At the moment you should wait until people like coupon mad and her friends reply , they know all about Stanmer
Do nothing for now , but consider telling the lease company that you are dealing with it , assuming it was a windscreen PCN
The normal rule is appeal before day 21 , not day 13 , but that is in case is an IPC member , whereas day 25 is a more usual date because of the 28 day cutoff
It also warns you to let the owner or RK or fleet manager too , in order to stop them from charging you as hirer or as lessee4 -
Don't respond just yet.
Wait a moment or two for @Coupon-mad to reply on your thread.
Meanwhile, you might like to read this thread:
Appealing PCN Stanmer Park, Brighton, One Parking Solution5 -
Agreed ... OPS is a speciatity of coupon-mad
OPS have been pulled apart in court .... bit by bit
5 -
Was this a windscreen ticket or a Notice to Keeper sent to the lease company which they have simply passed over to you to deal with?Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street4 -
It'll be a windscreen PCN at Stanmer Park.They have now contacted me back stating that I cannot appeal as I need authorisation from the keeper..You shouldn't do, but it might be easier to supply it. Will the lease firm confirm that you are the lessee/hirer? That will get you through to your win.
The other thing that springs to mind is to send an email to Gemma Dorans (BPA) who recently replied to me about OPS's little game they are running at Stanmer Park and show her what OPS have said to you. Ask, is it really the BPA's intention that an appeal from the lessee/hirer of a vehicle can be 'conditional' upon them either proving they have authority from the keeper who has not been contacted yet (and OPS don't have the DVLA data yet) or having to nominate the driver? You ask because the folks on MSE have told you that they understood that her boss Steve Clark confirmed recently that appeals can't be conditional upon naming the driver or getting some sort of authority from the registered keeper and of course, a hirer/lessee is a person who can certainly appeal.
gemma.d@britishparking.co.uk
Will your lease firm just pay this if they get the NTK next month? If that is the case, don't let it get to day 28 without an answer to this dilemma.
An admitted driver can win a Stanmer Park case too because the signage is diabolical, looks like 'keep of the grass' signs at ankle height. And due to issues with the stupid contract that BHCC have signed.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD7 -
Thank you for all your speedy replies.Please see my responses in bold below.
Thanks again all, with a special thank to C-M of course!!!Coupon-mad said:It'll be a windscreen PCN at Stanmer Park.They have now contacted me back stating that I cannot appeal as I need authorisation from the keeper..You shouldn't do, but it might be easier to supply it. Will the lease firm confirm that you are the lessee/hirer? That will get you through to your win. I'm certain that Arval, the lease company, will confirm to OPS that I am the lessee/hirer as they did this a previous time I got a private parking ticket, (which I didn't end up paying either!!!)
So do I cut to the chase and contact OPS with the info or just let OPS do the work in obtaining my details via DVLA/Arval?
The other thing that springs to mind is to send an email to Gemma Dorans (BPA) who recently replied to me about OPS's little game they are running at Stanmer Park and show her what OPS have said to you. Ask, Is it really the BPA's intention that an appeal from the lessee/hirer of a vehicle can be 'conditional' upon them either proving they have authority from the keeper who has not been contacted yet (and OPS don't have the DVLA data yet) or having to nominate the driver? You (I) ask because the folks on MSE have told you (me) that they understood that her (your) boss Steve Clark confirmed recently that appeals can't be conditional upon naming the driver or getting some sort of authority from the registered keeper and of course, a hirer/lessee is a person who can certainly appeal.
gemma.d@britishparking.co.ukVery happy to send Gemma Dorans an email. Shall I just copy and paste the OPS response for Gemma's info then followed by the part I have underlined in italics above? (With slight editing as per brackets)
Will your lease firm just pay this if they get the NTK next month? If that is the case, don't let it get to day 28 without an answer to this dilemma.I'm absolutely certain that the leasing company won't pay this as they didn't before. They just passed on my details to the parking firm. I've had an email from the Arval accounts department recently about an increase in road tax so I guess I could pre warn them and request/confirm that this is not to be paid by them with costs passed to me. At least that eradicates that risk.
An admitted driver can win a Stanmer Park case too because the signage is diabolical, looks like 'keep of the grass' signs at ankle height. And due to issues with the stupid contract that BHCC have signed.Sounds great to me!! :-)
1 -
Yes arval should reply to OPS with your details as lessee , after ops obtain RK details from the DVLA
It would be prudent to warn arval and to tell them that you tried to deal with it but were blocked
Forbid arval to pay it or incur any costs , just to name you as lessee as per bvrla guidelines4 -
Cheers RedxI'll ping Arval an email to shut the door on that one.2
-
Definitely.
State that you have found out that a non-POFA Notice to Keeper that can't hold ARVAL liable will wing its way to them in February and you categorically forbid ARVAL to pay it, they are not liable in law for this one because it was issued on 'non-relevant land' which means the registered keeper is never liable. You simply need ARVAL's reassurance that they are still following the BVRLA Memorandum of Understanding with the British Parking Association and will send a standard letter to OPS (at no cost to you) confirming you are the hirer* and giving OPS your name and address (have they got the right postal address for you after all this time - just checking that ARVAL will pass on the right address for you, which is vital).
* DO NOT SAY DRIVER AND DO NOT LET THEM USE THAT WORD EITHER.
PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD4 -
Hiya.Just checking in as I sent off emails to my leasing company and to Gemma Dorans as per advice above around the 28th Jan.I know it's not been a very long amount of time but just wondering what timescales OPS have to work within taking into consideration that they may well contact my leasing company to get my details.My initial appeal didn't work as they didn't accept it, as per first post, so I assume I just sit around and wait for the postal NTK and start from scratch with the appeals process?Cheers...1
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