Appealing PCN Stanmer Park, Brighton, One Parking Solution

hullogullo

Hi all, hope I'm doing this the right way and following protocol this time!

For some context, I find myself in a similar boat to Madpye in this thread: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6018787/popla-appeal-of-one-parking-solution-pcn-stanmer-park/p1

7 days ago today this keepers car got a pcn at Stanmer Park. The parking signs were not at all clear and it was much less clear that the driver was parking in a non-designated parking area (the car was parked well off-road and all verges were occupied by other vehicles - to the uninitiated it looked very much like a permitted parking zone).

I've had a look through the 'newbie' thread and just want to make sure that I've understood and am definitely doing the right thing here!

It is a windscreen ticket from a BPA member. From this keepers understanding, I believe that the first appeal should be a version of the template provided (the one that begins):

"Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn..."

The bit that makes me very nervous about is that the advice seems to be to "appeal online or by email at day 25 or 26". This would seem to raise the stakes as it would take it out of the £60 early-payment (within 14 days) window and up to the £100 full payment point (daylight robbery in either case). Fine if one is 100% sure that they are going to win the appeal, but not terribly appealing otherwise.

It would appear that Madpye did not wait until after this point and still won their appeal, which looks much less nerve-wracking from where I'm sitting.

Also seems to me that there is a fairly robust point to win this on here:

Coupon-mad said:

Since it is common ground that this is BHCC-owned local authority land, I would expect the operator to do one of two things, demonstrate the keeper is the driver or demonstrate the land they manage is NOT Council-owned and thus is 'relevant land' after all, to enable them to continue to pursue a registered keeper. As the operator has done neither, and by contrast, the appellant has shown the land is a Local Authority park and the operator has agreed, this is indisputably not 'relevant land' as defined in the POFA and in the absence of evidence of the driver, this appeal must be allowed.

Please forgive my questioning the established wisdom, but can anyone confirm that it's not a bad idea to send the template appeal now and then go down this route?

Many thanks for your help!

Redx

if it was a windscreen ticket and not a postal notice then you appeal to OPS on day 25 or day 26 , as a keeper, no blabbing about who was driving, so a keeper appeal to a ticket issued to the driver, but appealing as a keeper befoire they obtain keeper details from the DVLA database

this is to hope that they fail to send out the NTK to the keeper by day 56 , so you get as near to it as possible but before day 28 for receipt by OPS

however , if its a postal notice due to ANPR and no windscreen ticket was issued , then its appeal as keeper whenever you like but before day 28 following the postal notice, not after its timed out !!

so the important facts are if a windscreen ticket was issued (if yes follow the newbies advice for appeal around day 26) , or a postal notice (in which case no need to wait)

there is nothing ambiguous about that advice , because at no point is a driver appealing either , only a keeper

if they trip themselves up over the red tape , its their problem

if the driver blabs about who was driving , then all bets are off, because drivers tend to lose appeals and court cases , as do people who cannot help themselves and blab anyway , loose lips costs money !!

the appeal template is used regardless , providing it is not a lease or hire or company vehicle, a different template is for those

however, you did not mention plan A , so plan A should be attempted in the interim , in either case, plan A is always the best solution !!!!!

D_P_Dance

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP., it can cause the scammer extra costs, and in some cases, cancellation. 

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up later this year,

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these companies, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/of these Private Parking Companies.

Coupon-mad

You won't be paying a penny for a Stanmer Park PCN from OPS! 

Wait for the Notice to Keeper to arrive (next month) as long as you are the keeper of the car and your logbook address is up to date (check if you have moved since you got this car!), then:

Submit this online to OPS on their 'appeal' page, with your correct name & address details, but DO NOT tick 'driver'.  You are appealing as the registered keeper.  This probably won't work first time but if not then the keeper appeal about the POFA will win at POPLA. 

DO NOT DO THIS YET.  THIS IS FOR WHEN THE NTK ARRIVES IN THE POST:

I wish to appeal, having received Notice to Keeper from you.  This is clearly your non-POFA version of the document, and I know that the BPA told you in 2020 when they formally investigated complaints against your firm, that you had to issue non-POFA NTKs because Stanmer Park is not 'relevant land'.  I am the registered keeper and sorry to disappoint you, but the driver will not be named. 

The signs  at Stanmer Park are abysmal, and a mix of Local Authority signs and your illegible, broken and/or sparsely placed small boards with tiny writing. You can't even be bothered to make sure they are two metres above ground level (as BHCC require) and in many photos provided to your victims, the nearest sign has the suspicious appearance of being stuck into the ground on a short wooden stake at knee height, possibly just for the photo evidence.  

I have a copy of your supposed landowner 'authority' with BHCC and am aware of its failings and will point them out to POPLA, if the non-POFA issue is not enough on its own.  However, you and I both know that a keeper cannot be held liable. I suggest you cancel this one.

Recently, OPS seem to be refusing this first appeal even though they know they can't win.  They hope people will pay anyway or forget to do POPLA.  Don't miss that stage! 

If and when you get a POPLA code, I have a template 'Stanmer Park special' POPLA appeal.  It deals also with the fact that the BHCC contract is a pile of pants. Let me know when you get your POPLA code and rejection email or letter and keep checking your spam emails every week just in case, after you do the first appeal.  

More good news is that BHCC will be re-marking and signing this site and removing OPS in mid-February 2021, not because they think OPS have done wrong (the Council are good at putting their fingers in their ears) but because this site is to have a Traffic Order and proper traffic wardens and signs and lines everywhere, at last! 

So you will see a difference at Stanmer Park in terms of signs and lines but don't park on the road or on a verge area because that's what BHCC want to stop.  Hopefully they will open up the car parking areas they closed because if not, goodness knows where they expect people to park there but all should become much clearer.

hullogullo

Thank you for the advice all!

Coupon-mad - so, I definitely shouldn't "appeal to OPS on day 25 or day 26" as per the advice of Redx and the Newbie thread, on this occasion? 

I should just wait for the NTK to arrive and then do as you say?

And it's 100% a better idea to do this, rather than appeal now and then take the same position with them - as Madpye successfully managed? What is the logic on waiting for the NTK please? I understand the distinction between driver and keeper, but it seems to me that taking this to the POPLA stage is an almost inevitability and appealing now would be a shortcut to that and we'd probably get there sooner?

Thanks again!

Fruitcake

The general advice is to wait until day 26 where a NTD has been given. C-m wrote that advice but has detailed knowledge of OPS and thrashed them in court. Even though she was acting as a lay rep, she beat a barrister. If she is suggesting going off piste for OPS then follow her advice to the letter.

Coupon-mad

There is a plan for Stanmer Park cases.  Send me a pm if you want me to explain more but basically, you WANT the NTK to arrive and have zero danger of having to pay OPS a penny. I am local and I help people beat OPS in court.
  
 Every case I've assisted this way, has caused OPS to drop it like a hot potato as soon as they see the POPLA appeal template I have here!

hullogullo

Thanks Coupon-mad!

I've just dropped you a pm!

hullogullo

Won the appeal!

Thank you all so much for your help!

Coupon-mad

Hooray!  Nicely done - easy when you know how.

Bolognese

Coupon-Mad may I please drop you a pm too?
I know two keepers who received a PCN at Stanmer Park from OPS. From what I understand, they wait to receive the NTK and then send the appeal as written above?