How to proceed with sale (I'm the seller) when buyer needs to use Shiply

pbartlett

no they cannot chargeback a paypal f and f payment that is the whole point of them

soolin

pbartlett said:

no they cannot chargeback a paypal f and f payment that is the whole point of them

Yes they can , it is a little known scam that sellers overlook. The buyer can’t do an INR or an SNAD and buyers therefore believe they are safe , however a proper scammer (and it is possibly outside the normal behaviour of a chancer) can raise a claim for fraudulent use of a card with their bank- this is usually the easiest chargeback/claim for a seller to defend as all it takes is proof of postage to the address given by PayPal. On a collection item that proof of postage to the address...(etc) cannot be provided as a) the item was not posted and b) there is no safe address provided.

I have seen this done by a scammer, and indeed it has been the subject of a thread on here in the past, I have also seen it done more recently accidentally where a genuine buyer has noticed something from a few months earlier on their bank statement they don’t recognise and notified the bank it must have been fraud. That case got very complicated and expensive very quickly and seller originally lost all of the original payment plus PayPal handling charges and although buyer actually did eventually repay the seller after relaxing their mistake the seller was without the funds for several weeks and lost the PayPal handling fee. 

pbartlett

Sorry I don't understand this - could you explain further? Let's say the scammer makes a F+F paypal payment to someone. If the money  comes from their paypal balance then the bank is not involved. If the money comes via their debit card you are saying they then tell their bank that paypal debited their account fraudulently?

pbartlett

PS also do not understand the reference to shipping address and proof of shipment. It is a f+f paypal payment and there is no product or sale involved hence no shipping address.

soolin

pbartlett said:

Sorry I don't understand this - could you explain further? Let's say the scammer makes a F+F paypal payment to someone. If the money  comes from their paypal balance then the bank is not involved. If the money comes via their debit card you are saying they then tell their bank that paypal debited their account fraudulently?

The scam works where scammer uses a bank card to pay via PayPal , buyers don’t need to have a PayPal balance in order to buy something using PayPal.  As a seller you can’t tell how the payment you receive was funded.

You are correct about the bank chargeback, scammer tells bank they don’t recognise the transaction and believes it to be fraudulent and bank is obliged to reclaim that money from PayPal. PayPal repay it and charge seller . Where the payment was a full payment seller can recover their funds from PayPal by showing online proof of postage to the address given by PayPal. If it was a F and F payment there is no address and claim cannot be defended. 

soolin

pbartlett said:

PS also do not understand the reference to shipping address and proof of shipment. It is a f+f paypal payment and there is no product or sale involved hence no shipping address.

That is my exact point, if buyer makes a claim for fraudulent use of a card (which happens, I've had several such claims against me) then a seller can easily defend that charge by providing proof of postage to PayPal address. As a F and F payment has no associated address the seller cannot defend the claim. 

There is a sticky thread about postage at top of the forum that explains the different sorts of chargebacks and claims that can be made on PayPal and what is needed as a seller to defend them. 

As said earlier though this is not a common scam and I’ve only seen it done by a ‘professional’ scammer or by accident. It is rarely done by pure chancers as the fraud claim to the bank needs to sound genuine as making a false claim to the bank is quite a serious undertaking.

theonlywayisup

pbartlett said:

Sorry I don't understand this - could you explain further? Let's say the scammer makes a F+F paypal payment to someone. If the money  comes from their paypal balance then the bank is not involved. If the money comes via their debit card you are saying they then tell their bank that paypal debited their account fraudulently?

As has been explained the sender of F&F payment can chargeback a payment and Paypal offer no protection against this for F&F transactions.

People [sellers] think that F&F is totally safe, this is because it offers no facility for the buyer to open a case (not a chargeback).  They are not able to claim 'item not received' or 'significantly not as described'.  But the loophole which the seller doesn't realise is that the payment can be subject to a chargeback and Paypal offer no protection with F&F chargebacks.  Cases and chargebacks are different. 

pbartlett

@soolin thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed explanation. As you say, I think it would have to be a particularly determined fraudster to go to their bank and claim fraudulent use of their bank card when they were the ones who had used it - that in itself would be fraud and anyway i suspect they would only get away with it once!

Anyway, when I sold the sofa they paid f+f and luckily there were no problems and I just mentioned what I did in case it helps anyone.

Tunstallstoven

@soolin

This is an old thread now, but was a very helpful (and much appreciated) one at the time.  I wonder how eBay's move away from Paypal effects things now that only eBay's rules need to be followed and not those of PP?  Is that something you plan to update in your sticky that covers the subject?  

More generally does anyone know whether the eBay Money Back Guarantee is also changing or remaining the same?

Cheers

soolin

Seagull27 said:

@soolin

This is an old thread now, but was a very helpful (and much appreciated) one at the time.  I wonder how eBay's move away from Paypal effects things now that only eBay's rules need to be followed and not those of PP?  Is that something you plan to update in your sticky that covers the subject?  

More generally does anyone know whether the eBay Money Back Guarantee is also changing or remaining the same?

Cheers

I’m always planning to update the sticky threads but this board isn’t really used as much as it used to be so I have just never got round to it. 

The only real difference now is that managed payments appears to support cash on collection ia use of a scannable QR code which PayPal never signed up to. 

I did get an email message from ebay saying there have been changes made to the buyer money back guarantee but I admit too only skimming it and not really seeing anything momentous.