How to proceed with sale (I'm the seller) when buyer needs to use Shiply

soolin

Seagull27 said:

Hi all
Been trying to get this sorted all day - it's all a bit of s stress!!  
Can I just check a couple of things please?  With the buyer having arranged the courier through Shiply:
-  If Shiply confirm that the item is being delivered to the eBay / registered PP address
- If the Shiply courier gives me a tracking number
- If the Shiply courier adds me to the Shiply messages so that I cam kept up to date RE collection, delivery etc.
Is that all together enough to protect me against an INR?  

Regarding scratches or any other damage, as he's arranging and paying for the courier, am I already not liable for that??  

Many thanks for the help   

If you can satisfy the criteria that PayPal require for an INR then you are covered, that is online tracking showing delivery to the address PayPal give as OK. 

As for damage, you are not protected against that if buyer opens a case for SNAD. However if item is a collection only item with postage not offered at all and where buyer pays and arranges their own courier I would argue that any damage done by courier would not allow a successful SNAD claim. The problem would be proving the item left you in perfect condition but where no offer of postage was made it could be argued that the courier was acting as agent of the buyer and as such collected it on behalf of the buyer and had the opportunity to inspect it before accepting it. 

A PayPal claim for SNAD though might succeed but then buyer would need to pay for the return.  

Tunstallstoven

Thanks for the quick response @soolin .  Much appreciated.  It has been an anxiety inducing day!  And once this is sorted, I'll take a deep breath and review all my selling after having done some proper research into how to sell safely and properly. 

As things stand, I'm liaising with the courier RE tracking and proof of delivery and will see what they say.

I've used Shiply before a handful of times, but only as a buyer.  In all previous uses, as soon as I accept a job I get a message in the Shiply messages saying "Mr So and So" has been added to the conversation, which turns it into a three way chat between buyer, seller and courier.  Great idea!  I've had no invite though and so I've enquired about that as well. 

With regards how the listing was done, I had it as "freight/Courier - Read the item description or contact the seller for details".  But when the buyer came to pay he wasn't able to because eBay said he had to contact the seller re the "freight" aspect.  He sent me a screenshot of said page.  I tried to send pa payment request but I was likewise getting an error.  So I changed it to "Courier - Other 3-5 days" and that worked.  I was just trying anything to get passed the error message.  I've since spoken to eBay to see if they can change it to reflect that the buyer is collecting.  They said they cannot, but that it's fine because there are messages between me and the buyer in which we clearly state that he is arranging the courier.  Any problems in amongst all that bit?  

Thanks again for all this.  Warms the spirit how much people are willing to help.

soolin

Ignore anything eBay CS tell you , as your item shows you are technically posting it you remain liable for damage until the time buyer receives it and is happy. That also means that if item is damaged you would need to pay for the return costs as well.

However , remember that some of us regulars are all doom and gloom and see every imaginable problem going, when in fact even these sort of transactions tend to go well so I may well be worrying you un necessarily. 

For future reference to have any sort of argument against an INR or a SNAD for a ‘collected’ item in future (or at least until you go onto managed payments) always list with No postage, collection only - which is an option available on the drop down menu. Never opt to show courier or freight as that implies it is not a collection only item. 

soolin

This has been chosen at random but look at this auction

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mahogany-dining-table-and-6-chairs/143918041910?hash=item21822f0b36:g:jhgAAOSw2sRfppp8

It clearly shows collection only, so if buyer sends a courier seller has a very good argument that buyer collected via their agent (the courier) and therefore this cannot be subject to an INR or a SNAD claim . 

Tunstallstoven

I think for peace of mind's sake I am going to look into cancelling the sale.  It will leave me open to a negative feedback I guess (my first, and I'm at 1389 so that will be a bit gutting).  If I lose the PP fee then so be it.  I feel a bit bad though for the buyer as if they are legit then they'll have lost their Shiply deposit.  So perhaps I'll check where he'd stand with Shiply first...

Being a touch facetious for a moment, how's best to protect oneself from collection?  Is there a usual way to gain proof when someone collects?  And I seem to remember you have to be careful when someone pays with Paypal and then collects?

Thanks again

soolin

Seagull27 said:

I think for peace of mind's sake I am going to look into cancelling the sale.  It will leave me open to a negative feedback I guess (my first, and I'm at 1389 so that will be a bit gutting).  If I lose the PP fee then so be it.  I feel a bit bad though for the buyer as if they are legit then they'll have lost their Shiply deposit.  So perhaps I'll check where he'd stand with Shiply first...

Being a touch facetious for a moment, how's best to protect oneself from collection?  Is there a usual way to gain proof when someone collects?  And I seem to remember you have to be careful when someone pays with Paypal and then collects?

Thanks again

Again can I refer you to the sticky thread about the problems of collection only items. Personally I do not use eBay for collection only items and use marketplace on Facebook instead where I can refuse PayPal ,  although with managed payments there is seller protection by way of a QR code. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

soolin said:

Seagull27 said:

The buyer has arranged the courier through Shiply and will be paying the courier themselves.  So that means I'm protected from the above aren't I?  

Check the sticky thread about the issues of collection only items. For PayPal protection you must have tracked online delivery confirmation to win an INR and even for simple protection against a claim for fraudulent use of a card you need proof of posting- both of these need to go to the address given by PayPal. If buyer sends a courier will you have proof of the address it has gone to, proof of postage and proof of delivery online? 

Your claim will not qualify for a refund under PayPal Buyer Protection for an Item Not Received claim, if:

• You collect the item in person, or arrange for it to be collected on your behalf, including if you use PayPal in a seller's retail point of sale, except for in-person PayPal QR code goods and services transactions.

Tunstallstoven

Ah yes, of course, sorry.  I'll have another read of the sticky.  I'm going to spend the evening drinking coffee and getting my head round all this, making some notes, and then - hopefully - knowing what to do in the future.  But I’ve got to say, my head's spinning!  So I think cancelling the transaction will not only save a potential scam (still not sure how much "potential" there is, but even a smidge isn't worth it)., but might save me doing some serious damage to my brain cells.  I haven’t quite worked out yet whether this is all very complex, or I’m very thick!    

For this current situation, like I said I think I'll cancel it.  But I do have a "what if"...  So what if I were to cancel the transaction and refund the buyer, relist the item and he were to buy it again, but this time with the shipping as Collection Only, and for payment to be made via BACs instead (something we could agree in advance).  Would that work, and give me the chance to still make a sale, and him the chance to still get his table?

And even if it would work, are there dangers to him having my name, address and bank details?  Or is that another whole can of worms?

Thanks for the continued help and support.  

Tunstallstoven

Sorry to be back again so soon!  
I've just written to the buyer to explain my need to cancel and why.  He replied saying he has just bought the matching bench for the table and would like to proceed if possible.  He said he's happy to arrange another courier.
I've got no idea whether he's just a really good scammer or totally legit and I'm letting him down.  I guess that's the name of the game though!  

So I'm wondering if anyone can think of a way forward with this?  Or is cancellation really the only safe option?

soolin

Seagull27 said:

Sorry to be back again so soon!  
I've just written to the buyer to explain my need to cancel and why.  He replied saying he has just bought the matching bench for the table and would like to proceed if possible.  He said he's happy to arrange another courier.
I've got no idea whether he's just a really good scammer or totally legit and I'm letting him down.  I guess that's the name of the game though!  

So I'm wondering if anyone can think of a way forward with this?  Or is cancellation really the only safe option?

It depends on the value involved, I would be reluctant to cancel as there is a chance it will cause your account to be restricted as eBay might see this as an attempt to circumnavigate fees. They can see collection details and addresses have been exchanged, yet sale mysteriously gets cancelled and you recover your FVFs.  As mentioned before  my action would depend on whether this is a £100 item or a £1000 item .