Help needed on extremely high electricity bill

Gerry1

coffeehound said:

jack_pott said:
It estimates bills will fall....as consumers cut their electricity usage by 2.8 per cent....but an early study of 743 Dutch households with the meters found they only used....0.6 per cent less electricity than those with old meters.

A prophetic article.  In fact even then, they couldn't foresee the fault that meters couldn't even be used by different suppliers.  What a clusterfudge.

Turns out that it wasn't gloomy enough.  It was estimated that bills will fall by £26 a year by 2020, but the official figure is now just a measly £11.  The cost per household has rocketed, it's now well over £400.

But we need to get this thread back on topic !

[Deleted User]

coffeehound said:

jack_pott said:
It estimates bills will fall....as consumers cut their electricity usage by 2.8 per cent....but an early study of 743 Dutch households with the meters found they only used....0.6 per cent less electricity than those with old meters.

A prophetic article.  In fact even then, they couldn't foresee the fault that meters couldn't even be used by different suppliers.  What a clusterfudge.

I have long been arguing that the best way to reduce fuel use is by using steeply progressive tariffs so that it becomes punitively expensive to be profligate without penalising the frugal. The very least they could do is ban the regressive tariffs we already have, which are rewarding the profligate at the expense of the frugal, but at the moment, legislation bans companies from subsidising one category of customer from another, which is effectively making regressive tariffs compulsory. Regressive standing charges are designed to reflect the fixed and variable costs of running a business, but in any sector of the economy where it's socially desirable to reduce consumption, the fixed and variable costs that create economy of scale are counterproductive, and incentivising people to do the opposite of what's needed.

Gerry1

jack_pott said:

coffeehound said:

jack_pott said:
It estimates bills will fall....as consumers cut their electricity usage by 2.8 per cent....but an early study of 743 Dutch households with the meters found they only used....0.6 per cent less electricity than those with old meters.

A prophetic article.  In fact even then, they couldn't foresee the fault that meters couldn't even be used by different suppliers.  What a clusterfudge.

I have long been arguing that the best way to reduce fuel use is by using steeply progressive tariffs so that it becomes punitively expensive to be profligate without penalising the frugal.

That's one of the real reason why smart meters are being rolled out, but it's dishonest not to do this openly and transparently.

jack_pott said:

coffeehound said:

jack_pott said:
It estimates bills will fall....as consumers cut their electricity usage by 2.8 per cent....but an early study of 743 Dutch households with the meters found they only used....0.6 per cent less electricity than those with old meters.

A prophetic article.  In fact even then, they couldn't foresee the fault that meters couldn't even be used by different suppliers.  What a clusterfudge.

at the moment, legislation bans companies from subsidising one category of customer from another

Does it?  Seems quite the opposite.  Pre-payment customers, usually the poorest and / or unbanked, have to pay significantly more than those paying by direct debit.

MWT

Gerry1 said:

Does it?  Seems quite the opposite.  Pre-payment customers, usually the poorest and / or unbanked, have to pay significantly more than those paying by direct debit.

The argument is that they have to pay the extra costs of collecting their payments in a more expensive way, so yes they pay more and so are not being subsidised by those able to pay using cheaper methods...

Talldave

jack_pott said:

coffeehound said:

jack_pott said:
It estimates bills will fall....as consumers cut their electricity usage by 2.8 per cent....but an early study of 743 Dutch households with the meters found they only used....0.6 per cent less electricity than those with old meters.

A prophetic article.  In fact even then, they couldn't foresee the fault that meters couldn't even be used by different suppliers.  What a clusterfudge.

I have long been arguing that the best way to reduce fuel use is by using steeply progressive tariffs so that it becomes punitively expensive to be profligate without penalising the frugal. The very least they could do is ban the regressive tariffs we already have, which are rewarding the profligate at the expense of the frugal, but at the moment, legislation bans companies from subsidising one category of customer from another, which is effectively making regressive tariffs compulsory. Regressive standing charges are designed to reflect the fixed and variable costs of running a business, but in any sector of the economy where it's socially desirable to reduce consumption, the fixed and variable costs that create economy of scale are counterproductive, and incentivising people to do the opposite of what's needed.

How are you going to measure frugality without somehow incorporating the size of the property? 

[Deleted User]

Gerry1 said:

jack_pott said:

coffeehound said:

jack_pott said:
It estimates bills will fall....as consumers cut their electricity usage by 2.8 per cent....but an early study of 743 Dutch households with the meters found they only used....0.6 per cent less electricity than those with old meters.

A prophetic article.  In fact even then, they couldn't foresee the fault that meters couldn't even be used by different suppliers.  What a clusterfudge.

I have long been arguing that the best way to reduce fuel use is by using steeply progressive tariffs so that it becomes punitively expensive to be profligate without penalising the frugal.

That's one of the real reason why smart meters are being rolled out, but it's dishonest not to do this openly and transparently.

jack_pott said:

coffeehound said:

jack_pott said:
It estimates bills will fall....as consumers cut their electricity usage by 2.8 per cent....but an early study of 743 Dutch households with the meters found they only used....0.6 per cent less electricity than those with old meters.

A prophetic article.  In fact even then, they couldn't foresee the fault that meters couldn't even be used by different suppliers.  What a clusterfudge.

at the moment, legislation bans companies from subsidising one category of customer from another

Does it?  Seems quite the opposite.  Pre-payment customers, usually the poorest and / or unbanked, have to pay significantly more than those paying by direct debit.

I knew they were planning to use smart meters to charge by time of day, but I've not heard anything about progressive tariffs.
The premium paid by pre-payment customers is exactly the sort of regressive tariff I'm arguing against.
Re: legislation, the reference I made a note of relates to water, so it may not be the same for gas & electricity. Nevertheless, all utilities would benefit from progressive charging.
Money Box - Rising Water Charges - BBC Sounds

coffeehound

Talldave said:
How are you going to measure frugality without somehow incorporating the size of the property? 

As a crude measure, perhaps cross reference the Council Tax bracketing, which would also indicate single occupants.  Progressive pricing sounds like a good and reasonable measure.  We're going to need some large sticks and tasty carrots to carry on with electric-only new homes and rising EV adoption.

[Deleted User]

coffeehound said:

Talldave said:
How are you going to measure frugality without somehow incorporating the size of the property? 

As a crude measure, perhaps cross reference the Council Tax bracketing, which would also indicate single occupants.  Progressive pricing sounds like a good and reasonable measure.  We're going to need some large sticks and tasty carrots to carry on with electric-only new homes and rising EV adoption.

For a simple tariff with only a small amount of progression there's no need for anything other than a two tier charge per kWh, but if we're going for something more, you would have to take account of whether people are heating by gas or electricity in some way. I don't see that house size should be relevant, large households spend more on food, water, clothing, mortgage, council tax etc., why should fuel be any different?

Robin9

All very interesting but where's the OP ?

niktheguru

The main benefit with smart metering if it actually works is that it will stop the ridiculous estimating of bills that is causing lots of people to get caught out with that "massive bill" several months/years after starting a tariff when they couldn't be bothered/didn't know/weren't aware that they had to give accurate meter readings and assumed their "direct debit" covered their usage regardless, and then assume its the utility company's fault that they used so much energy. (When in fact its both their fault, the utility company for not checking accurate usage is being charged for earlier, and the user for using so much energy and not accurately documenting their usage)