BMW X5 Diesel - Used or New - why so expensive do you think? + Pessimistic GFV

gzoom

Bachelorplace said:

 When we do go back to normal cars after the EV or even Hybrid Lexus - it really is such an eye opener. 

Ultimately thats why I got rid of my old BMW, I loved the 335i, spent ££££ on Bird B3 suspension, a Quaife LSD, it was running aftermarket down pipes/intercooler/additional oil cooler putting out near 400WHP on the dyno and still wheelspining (so likely close to 500bhp at the crank).

Engine in the X5 440i you like is essentially the great grand child of the N54 unit I had in my 335i, its about as good as it gets without spending ££££ on supercars.  It made the NA V8 M3 of the time look tame, and could keep up with proper supercars when pulling at from 60mph+ to silly figures (on the Autobhan ofcourse).

I even took mine on a road trip to Swiss alps, absolutely loved it!


But as you say the minute I test drove an EV and got back in it I got the same feeling of 'what's wrong with it', the noise, the throttle lag, gears etc. I knew it had to go after my first test drive in an EV....and this is the EV I swapped it for!! Give me the choice today I would still take a Leaf over ANY combustion car. 

You're last statement says it all really, you either go with more of the same or try something new and different......Life is short, given the year that's just gone, and what coming over the next few weeks, if you are lucky enough to drop straight into a 'premium' EV I really would say its a no brainer decision. 

I made the jump over 5 years ago, thats half a decade!! Even if you are a 'late' adopter now is as good time as any to own an EV .

gzoom

I do have to warn you though, the whole EV thing gets very addictive, I have reduced my car usage in the last year by doing my commute on one these......


Tesla has an 'insane mode' warning that comes up for 'Performance' Models if you choose to activate the quickest acceleration option.....I simply love the fact I now get a similar warning now on my pedal bike, or even the fact I can plug a laptop into my pedal like and 'tune' it like a car!! Batteries and electric motors I really do love them

Grumpy_chap

Deleted_User said:

Grumpy_chap said:

The previous two posters are correct about used EV's holding their value.
I don't understand why as I would not pay a bean for a used EV because the battery will be shot and a massive great big bill looming.
There are people that will, though.  I've seen a Renault Zoe listed at a local trader £9k and not even including the battery!  Quite absurd.

Tesla at the least, that nonsense about the battery being shot is laughable, statistically almost all Tesla batteries are holding over 90% of new capacity even after 4 years. It's sad to see misinformed people continuing to repeat the myths about batteries. Even at 90% capacity, that's hardly the end of the world, a 400 mile car range dropping to, checks notes, around 360 miles! OH NOES WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN

I think the PCP rates give a very strong indication that the current high residual values of EV's are not here to stay:

• Tesla model 3 LR, 10k miles/year, £9k down, £600/month, 4 years = £37k gone
• Jaguar iPace, 10k miles/year, £16k down, £650/month, 4 years = £47k gone
• Audi e-tron, 10k miles/year, £6k down, £700/month, 4 years = £40k gone

If the depreciation was really going to stay at "near zero", then no-one would sign up to these "lose £40k" deals when the better thing would be to buy outright (even with finance) and then sell after 4 years and get the money back.

AdrianC

£47k over 40k miles... <wince>
£1.17 per mile.

DrEskimo

Grumpy_chap said:

Deleted_User said:

Grumpy_chap said:

The previous two posters are correct about used EV's holding their value.
I don't understand why as I would not pay a bean for a used EV because the battery will be shot and a massive great big bill looming.
There are people that will, though.  I've seen a Renault Zoe listed at a local trader £9k and not even including the battery!  Quite absurd.

Tesla at the least, that nonsense about the battery being shot is laughable, statistically almost all Tesla batteries are holding over 90% of new capacity even after 4 years. It's sad to see misinformed people continuing to repeat the myths about batteries. Even at 90% capacity, that's hardly the end of the world, a 400 mile car range dropping to, checks notes, around 360 miles! OH NOES WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN

I think the PCP rates give a very strong indication that the current high residual values of EV's are not here to stay:

• Tesla model 3 LR, 10k miles/year, £9k down, £600/month, 4 years = £37k gone
• Jaguar iPace, 10k miles/year, £16k down, £650/month, 4 years = £47k gone
• Audi e-tron, 10k miles/year, £6k down, £700/month, 4 years = £40k gone

If the depreciation was really going to stay at "near zero", then no-one would sign up to these "lose £40k" deals when the better thing would be to buy outright (even with finance) and then sell after 4 years and get the money back.

Doesn't mean they are right. The finance houses are clearly taking a very guarded view of their future value. They assume similar levels of depreciation as ICE, however have been quite far off on some EVs. Whether that will continue is anyone's guess..

You can still take the PCP and profit from increased residuals. Doesn't mean you have to sell it or buy it outright. You simply trade the car in for the higher value, rather than handing it back to the finance company.

Of course you pay way more interest by using PCP finance (something I am guilty of banging on about), but the depreciation is the same. As to why people still do it despite thinking depreciation will be less? Well they prioritise 'affordable' monthly payments over the total cost. That and some belief (imo false) that it will protect them from depreciation and that they somehow get stronger consumer rights.

Grumpy_chap

AdrianC said:

£47k over 40k miles... <wince>
£1.17 per mile.

Yes, especially when a Jaguar F-Pace 10k miles/year, £16k down, only £230/month, 4 years = £27k gone or a saving of £20k compared to the EV.  
Just the same level of "cachet" on the drive.
40k miles at 40 mpg = 1k gallons at £6 per gallon = £6k.  Still £14k better off than with ICE than EV.
I don't like the fact that is the way the sums are.  It is one big gamble for the individual to hope / expect to recoup through the final value being a massive load greater than the GMV at the end of the PCP deal.
Until this thread, the i-PACE was one of the cars in my "desire-list" - it definitely not now.   

gzoom said:

Tesla's approach to car software development means our Model X has far exceeded my expectations. Some people don't get on with Tesla's approach of been keen to 'beta' software at every opportunity, am fine with it, but no everyone is. 

At some point next year I look forwards to trying the 'Full Self Driving' beta software on my car, I've never owned a car that's had so much additional software functionality pushed to it 4 years+ post deliver!

Are the software updates on every car, or only if you pay the extra £7k upfront for "full self-driving computer"?

Bachelorplace

You can't profit ever in a PCP. You would be very unlikely to ever trade a car in for a higher value.
I have been told on numerous occasions by heads of business, senior techs and sales people at retailers that when you are in a PCP with a certain manufacturer they have an "interest in the car" - Your consumer rights should not be affected either way. AND ARE NOT. 

However. 
I am talking about awkward warranty claims or conversations with a dealer about a fault, that they don't want to fix. Mercedes for instance are good at that BMW less so. 

A Mercedes customer who has a PCP who bought the car from Mercedes Dealer A - is going to have an easier time than Customer B who bought from the same network but somewhere else in cash. ESPECIALLY OUT OF WARRANTY.
I am merely stating experience - by all means share yours - along with a list of warranty claims or disputes you have won or lost in the consumer arena then we can shake hands one that point. Perhaps I should re word this to be 'warranty goodwill" or "customer service".

Back to the EV - Polestar has a nice stereo and looks great. But this morning I had a panic looking at the available superchargers in my area. There are Zero of them! 

Most of my  journeys - are varied motorway trips long ones - London to Bristol, Bristol to Brighton, Cotswolds to Birmingham. My friends live 80 miles away and 120 miles away - and my work sometimes can dry up and I have to "relocate" to wherever I can find work. 

In a Jaguar I Pace I drove from Newbury to Fareham to see a friend. I charged it with a high end charger and got 120 miles in about 25 minutes for £16.00 - by the time I got back to Newbury - all that £16.00 was all but gone. Granted Teslas are way better, but I think I might be needing more SuperChargers for it to suit me. 

I have another friend in Sussex - there is one charger in Sussex - I would need a Supercharger because most of my battery would be depleted - I would have to stop off in Ditching. 

I am not sure what I was thinking - I want to do this - but as an anxiety sufferer... its not looking good for me today. 

Batteries. 
Yes Widely Tesla batteries use or loose 10% -15% in 100k miles which is reported from users, but not all packs are equal. 
The range available drops over the years and this will depend on the previous owners use of the car. 
These charts show some interesting stats
https://teslike.com/ or
https://teslike.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/3-mi-912.png

Resale.
The issue with Tesla is that - everyone knows you should only buy from them and so this inho means the floor will drop out of the used market, not just because of it being hard to ascertain the health of the battery but also because there is no back up if something goes wrong - until a Tesla specialist pops up ( which they wont be allowed to ) - your only option is to rent them on PCP - which is fine for most and maybe even me. 

Personally I am having looked at logistics of the thinking THIS is why the BMW X5 is so expensive 
1. No stock 
2. Doesn't need to be plugged in
3. People understand it.
4. They have done their homework and Teslas are still a niche albeit highly desirable car. 
I do wonder when i see the Teslas on dealer forecourts that don't sell EVs why if these cars are amazing did the driver trade it.

DrEskimo

Grumpy_chap said:

AdrianC said:

£47k over 40k miles... <wince>
£1.17 per mile.

Yes, especially when a Jaguar F-Pace 10k miles/year, £16k down, only £230/month, 4 years = £27k gone or a saving of £20k compared to the EV.  
Just the same level of "cachet" on the drive.
40k miles at 40 mpg = 1k gallons at £6 per gallon = £6k.  Still £14k better off than with ICE than EV.
I don't like the fact that is the way the sums are.  It is one big gamble for the individual to hope / expect to recoup through the final value being a massive load greater than the GMV at the end of the PCP deal.
Until this thread, the i-PACE was one of the cars in my "desire-list" - it definitely not now.   

What models are you comparing though? A basic trim 2.0 diesel F-Pace has barely any of the optional extras and no where near the performance of the I-Pace. In essence you could do the exact same comparison within the F-Pace range! The sportier higher trim version is more expensive...

When you spec the F-Pace to have a similar engine performance and trim level to the I-Pace, the difference in price is around £150-200/month on finance. The APR is actually higher for the I-Pace, so bought outright and assuming trade ins of the GFV for both (we will put aside my theory that the EV will be worth more) and you have very little in it.

Eg.
A F-Pace SE with the 3.0 6 cylinder petrol that more or less matches the I-Pace for performance and trim is £59,500, with a GFV of £23,200. Total cost £36,300.

I-Pace EV400 SE is £69,800 with a GFV of £27,800. Total cost £42,000.

That's a difference of just £5,700. I think the 3.0 6 cylinder petrol is going to cost a fair bit more than £6k to keep up with the I-Pace...

Grumpy_chap

DrEskimo said:

What models are you comparing though? A basic trim 2.0 diesel F-Pace has barely any of the optional extras and no where near the performance of the I-Pace. 

I took the "bog-standard" default F-Pace and the "bog-standard" default I-Pace as selected by the Jaguar website.

• F-PACE D180 R-Dynamic S Auto AWD
• I-PACE EV400 SE

I very much doubt many buyers considering an EV (usually for "green" credentials) would compare against the least "green" biggest engine alternative - though the OP in this thread has

Comparing performance of any ICE versus any EV is largely irrelevant, particularly if straight-line acceleration is being used as the measure of "performance".  That was covered in a recent thread where I was robustly knocked back for describing a selection of EV's as "sporty".

DrEskimo

Grumpy_chap said:

DrEskimo said:

What models are you comparing though? A basic trim 2.0 diesel F-Pace has barely any of the optional extras and no where near the performance of the I-Pace. 

I took the "bog-standard" default F-Pace and the "bog-standard" default I-Pace as selected by the Jaguar website.

• F-PACE D180 R-Dynamic S Auto AWD
• I-PACE EV400 SE

I very much doubt many buyers considering an EV (usually for "green" credentials) would compare against the least "green" biggest engine alternative - though the OP in this thread has

Comparing performance of any ICE versus any EV is largely irrelevant, particularly if straight-line acceleration is being used as the measure of "performance".  That was covered in a recent thread where I was robustly knocked back for describing a selection of EV's as "sporty".

Sure, but your price differential is conflating the effect of EV Vs ICE, along with the difference in trim levels, optional extras and performance. 

As stated, what justifies the difference of thousands of pounds between the highest priced F-Pace and the lowest, if not performance, trim and optional extras?

By all means lament Jaguar for not having a slower, less optioned standard I-Pace, but your analysis that the difference between EV and ICE is purely down to the power train is biased by those other differences.