FTSE rising whilst prospect of FTA seems to be fading

MK62

thegentleway said:

Thrugelmir said:

thegentleway said:

BananaRepublic said:

thebrexitunicorn said:

I think if Scotland chooses self determination it won’t be because of ‘bags of sweeties’ from the EU.  The refusal to acknowledge Scotland’s remain vote in the referendum and the imposition of a hard Brexit on the country may well be sufficient incentive.  

You don't let the tail wag the dog.

And I wouldn't call this a hard Brexit, as we have no tariffs on goods and level playing field obligations. I suppose if you want to own a second home in Tuscany, import Poles to work in your factory, or retire to the south of Spain, life has become harder. Mind you it was hard to get, so perhaps you're right, it was a bloody hard Brexit.

On the spectrum of deals/aligment it's definitely way closer to WTO than EU membership, basically only one notch from WTO

Nothing wrong with WTO. 

I didn't say there was but I'm saying it now There's plenty wrong to trading with your biggest economic partner on pure WTO terms. The main (potential) economic benefit from leaving the EU was so we could make our own (better) trade deals

........but we aren't trading with the EU on WTO terms (or even close to them), and we can, and have, and will make our own trade deals.....

The economic benefits of Brexit won't all come on day one like the downsides have......

Sailtheworld

Thrugelmir said:

thegentleway said:

BananaRepublic said:

thebrexitunicorn said:

I think if Scotland chooses self determination it won’t be because of ‘bags of sweeties’ from the EU.  The refusal to acknowledge Scotland’s remain vote in the referendum and the imposition of a hard Brexit on the country may well be sufficient incentive.  

You don't let the tail wag the dog.

And I wouldn't call this a hard Brexit, as we have no tariffs on goods and level playing field obligations. I suppose if you want to own a second home in Tuscany, import Poles to work in your factory, or retire to the south of Spain, life has become harder. Mind you it was hard to get, so perhaps you're right, it was a bloody hard Brexit.

On the spectrum of deals/aligment it's definitely way closer to WTO than EU membership, basically only one notch from WTO

Nothing wrong with WTO. 

No, but a sub optimal way of trading with one of the World's biggest trading blocs located 25 miles away.

Thrugelmir

thegentleway said:

Thrugelmir said:

thegentleway said:

BananaRepublic said:

thebrexitunicorn said:

I think if Scotland chooses self determination it won’t be because of ‘bags of sweeties’ from the EU.  The refusal to acknowledge Scotland’s remain vote in the referendum and the imposition of a hard Brexit on the country may well be sufficient incentive.  

You don't let the tail wag the dog.

And I wouldn't call this a hard Brexit, as we have no tariffs on goods and level playing field obligations. I suppose if you want to own a second home in Tuscany, import Poles to work in your factory, or retire to the south of Spain, life has become harder. Mind you it was hard to get, so perhaps you're right, it was a bloody hard Brexit.

On the spectrum of deals/aligment it's definitely way closer to WTO than EU membership, basically only one notch from WTO

Nothing wrong with WTO. 

I didn't say there was but I'm saying it now There's plenty wrong to trading with your biggest economic partner on pure WTO terms. The main (potential) economic benefit from leaving the EU was so we could make our own (better) trade deals

Taxes pay the bills. Taxes can be redistributed for wider benefit to the economy. Trade is finate. With many sectors now dominated by a select few. 

thegentleway

Thrugelmir said:

thegentleway said:

Thrugelmir said:

thegentleway said:

BananaRepublic said:

thebrexitunicorn said:

I think if Scotland chooses self determination it won’t be because of ‘bags of sweeties’ from the EU.  The refusal to acknowledge Scotland’s remain vote in the referendum and the imposition of a hard Brexit on the country may well be sufficient incentive.  

You don't let the tail wag the dog.

And I wouldn't call this a hard Brexit, as we have no tariffs on goods and level playing field obligations. I suppose if you want to own a second home in Tuscany, import Poles to work in your factory, or retire to the south of Spain, life has become harder. Mind you it was hard to get, so perhaps you're right, it was a bloody hard Brexit.

On the spectrum of deals/aligment it's definitely way closer to WTO than EU membership, basically only one notch from WTO

Nothing wrong with WTO. 

I didn't say there was but I'm saying it now There's plenty wrong to trading with your biggest economic partner on pure WTO terms. The main (potential) economic benefit from leaving the EU was so we could make our own (better) trade deals

Taxes pay the bills. Taxes can be redistributed for wider benefit to the economy. Trade is finate. With many sectors now dominated by a select few.

are you trolling? Why don't we tear up all the trade deals and trade with every country on pure WTO terms then we'll be the richest country in the world. Pure genius!

Sailtheworld

Thrugelmir said:

thegentleway said:

Thrugelmir said:

thegentleway said:

BananaRepublic said:

thebrexitunicorn said:

I think if Scotland chooses self determination it won’t be because of ‘bags of sweeties’ from the EU.  The refusal to acknowledge Scotland’s remain vote in the referendum and the imposition of a hard Brexit on the country may well be sufficient incentive.  

You don't let the tail wag the dog.

And I wouldn't call this a hard Brexit, as we have no tariffs on goods and level playing field obligations. I suppose if you want to own a second home in Tuscany, import Poles to work in your factory, or retire to the south of Spain, life has become harder. Mind you it was hard to get, so perhaps you're right, it was a bloody hard Brexit.

On the spectrum of deals/aligment it's definitely way closer to WTO than EU membership, basically only one notch from WTO

Nothing wrong with WTO. 

I didn't say there was but I'm saying it now There's plenty wrong to trading with your biggest economic partner on pure WTO terms. The main (potential) economic benefit from leaving the EU was so we could make our own (better) trade deals

Taxes pay the bills. Taxes can be redistributed for wider benefit to the economy. Trade is finate. With many sectors now dominated by a select few. 

Who doesn't like a nice tangent.

BananaRepublic

thegentleway said:

BananaRepublic said:

thebrexitunicorn said:

I think if Scotland chooses self determination it won’t be because of ‘bags of sweeties’ from the EU.  The refusal to acknowledge Scotland’s remain vote in the referendum and the imposition of a hard Brexit on the country may well be sufficient incentive.  

You don't let the tail wag the dog.

And I wouldn't call this a hard Brexit, as we have no tariffs on goods and level playing field obligations. I suppose if you want to own a second home in Tuscany, import Poles to work in your factory, or retire to the south of Spain, life has become harder. Mind you it was hard to get, so perhaps you're right, it was a bloody hard Brexit.

On the spectrum of deals/aligment it's definitely way closer to WTO than EU membership, basically only one notch from WTO

It’s nothing like WTO. We have tariff free access without being in a customs union. We are free to make trade deals with other countries to suit our needs, rather than a mish mash that includes clauses to keep Germany, France, Poland etc happy. EU trade deals take so long to arrange because of all the chefs involved in making the pie. It means we can import some goods more cheaply because we don’t have to protect for example Spanish fruit growers, or Italian wine makers. We don’t have to obey EU laws eg working hours, union laws etc. 

There is an issue that I have not heard mentioned. If we get a trade deal that means we can import X from The Foreignistan Republic more cheaply than EU members, and we then export to the EU a product containing X, the EU might impose a tariff. 

The only real economic cost is the extra paperwork for trade with the EU. Culturally of course there is an impact: studying abroad, buying overseas holiday homes, retiring abroad etc. 

thegentleway

BananaRepublic said:

thegentleway said:

BananaRepublic said:

thebrexitunicorn said:

I think if Scotland chooses self determination it won’t be because of ‘bags of sweeties’ from the EU.  The refusal to acknowledge Scotland’s remain vote in the referendum and the imposition of a hard Brexit on the country may well be sufficient incentive.  

You don't let the tail wag the dog.

And I wouldn't call this a hard Brexit, as we have no tariffs on goods and level playing field obligations. I suppose if you want to own a second home in Tuscany, import Poles to work in your factory, or retire to the south of Spain, life has become harder. Mind you it was hard to get, so perhaps you're right, it was a bloody hard Brexit.

On the spectrum of deals/aligment it's definitely way closer to WTO than EU membership, basically only one notch from WTO

It’s nothing like WTO. We have tariff free access without being in a customs union. We are free to make trade deals with other countries to suit our needs, rather than a mish mash that includes clauses to keep Germany, France, Poland etc happy. EU trade deals take so long to arrange because of all the chefs involved in making the pie. It means we can import some goods more cheaply because we don’t have to protect for example Spanish fruit growers, or Italian wine makers. We don’t have to obey EU laws eg working hours, union laws etc. 

There is an issue that I have not heard mentioned. If we get a trade deal that means we can import X from The Foreignistan Republic more cheaply than EU members, and we then export to the EU a product containing X, the EU might impose a tariff. 

The only real economic cost is the extra paperwork for trade with the EU. Culturally of course there is an impact: studying abroad, buying overseas holiday homes, retiring abroad etc. 

Tariff free is a difference from WTO yes.
Free to make trade deals that’s no difference!
EU rules? firstly NI is in single market and subjects to EU rules anyway not obeying EU rules is pure WTO so that’s no different.
That’s 2 - 1 Thank you to making my point for me that the deal is closer to pure WTO/no deal than EU membership. 

BananaRepublic

thegentleway said:
Tariff free is a difference from WTO yes.

Free to make trade deals that’s no difference!
EU rules? firstly NI is in single market and subjects to EU rules anyway not obeying EU rules is pure WTO so that’s no different.
That’s 2 - 1 Thank you to making my point for me that the deal is closer to pure WTO/no deal than EU membership. 

We have no tariffs, and regulatory alignment wuth the EU, but tariffs can be introduced if divergence puts us or them at an unfair advantage. That’s nothing like WTO. The rest is just freedom, nothing to do with WTO. And yes it’s nothing like EU membership. 

thegentleway

BananaRepublic said:

thegentleway said:
Tariff free is a difference from WTO yes.

Free to make trade deals that’s no difference!
EU rules? firstly NI is in single market and subjects to EU rules anyway not obeying EU rules is pure WTO so that’s no different.
That’s 2 - 1 Thank you to making my point for me that the deal is closer to pure WTO/no deal than EU membership. 

We have no tariffs, and regulatory alignment wuth the EU, but tariffs can be introduced if divergence puts us or them at an unfair advantage. That’s nothing like WTO. The rest is just freedom, nothing to do with WTO. And yes it’s nothing like EU membership. 

OK but on the continuum of potential deals, the two extremes are no deal/WTO at one end and EU membership at the other end. Are you’re saying this deal sits perfectly in the middle and is the exact halfway house between no deal and EU membership? Coz that’s simply not true, it’s a lot closer to no deal than EU membership.

cricidmuslibale

It is and always will be imho really short-sighted thinking to make trade, security cooperation and coming together to combat massive global issues like climate change unnecessarily difficult with one's closest geographical neighbours i.e. other European countries. Many countries presently still inside the EU are far from happy with the balance of power lying too heavily with France and Germany at the expense of other less economically powerful nations and rightly so, in my opinion. The United Kingdom whilst inside the EU was the only country with the political muscle and economic strength to stand up to France and Germany and strongly encourage them to back off from trying to become more and more dominant at the expense of the so-called 'lesser nations' e.g. Greece; that was an unselfish responsibility this country could and should have taken for the greater good of European harmony as a whole. Instead we did anything but by bailing out and leaving both ourselves and the EU poorer, weaker and less important in a global sense whilst providing plenty of further encouragement, as if any further was needed, to nasty nationalists and hard right wing populists like Donald Trump, Nigel Farage, Marine Le Pen and Viktor Orban.

This whole very sorry saga called Brexit will in time be rightly regarded as the disgracefully selfish act of a nation (in the UK) that acted purely for what it saw as its own narrow self-interest at the expense of the noble and unselfish alternative of coming together as one European family for the common good of uplifting humanity and helping to look after planet Earth, because all nations (whether European or indeed elsewhere) no matter their size and economic strength become stronger when they act together and cooperate with one another to fight e.g. global poverty, deadly pandemics, international terrorism and potentially irreversible and catastrophic climate change!