FTSE rising whilst prospect of FTA seems to be fading

Another_Saver

BananaRepublic said:

Bobziz said:

Thrugelmir said:

Bobziz said:

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

I'm guessing that you felt well informed prior to your decision. If the is the case, which benefits are you hoping to see ?

From views expressed, in terms of tangible benefits, so far we have: better wages for trades people, cheaper houses, more cheap lower welfare standard foods. There must be more than this surely ? in terms of intangible potential benefits we have more flexibility to make trade deals, and 'opportunities', although I'm not clear how either of these things will provide benefits for the majority.

Given that we've never done this before, none of us are likely to be able to guarantee any particular benefit or disbenefit, but surely those that so passionately supported this change must have a clear idea of what benefits they hoped this would bring for them or our country ? wealthier, happier, healthier, all of the above ?

If you want a political discussion then this isn't the forum. Try Facebook.  

Not interested in a political discussion, which is why I'm asking about benefits. I'd like to hear about the potential financial benefits, but in the absence of that, I've asked about other benefits too because members have suggested that for them it wasn't about money. 

You seem like someone who does their due diligence, and you mentioned opportunities. What are the opportunities that ploughing our own furrow will now afford us ? 

I’ve already mentioned food imports from the US. Someone traduced that to mean imports of meat from unhealthy badly kept animals. In fact the US is a huge producer of fruit and vegetables as well as meat and it is perfectly good quality. We will benefit greatly and people will be able to choose what to buy. The US produces many other products too. And those who whine on about standards need to look at battery hens and other animals in this country. Much of this outcry is orchestrated by the farming lobby. 

Several anti Brexit posters have said food prices will go up. The head of Tesco recently said (see BBC news) that any food price rises will be negligible. But what does he know compared to experts here? 

EU agricultural policy has in part been shaped to protect French interests. The CAP consume about 40% of the EU budget and favours big business farming. Small and medium size farmers are going out of business. Big farms are dreadful for wildlife. Once common birds and wild plants are disappearing. One potential outcome is a better farming policy that better manages the countryside rather than create a sterile monoculture. 

At present the EU is driven by vested interests, mainly big business. It is in practice not democratic. For example our EU commissioner for a time was Peter Mandleson. He got the job as a reward for sucking up to Blair, and this is all too common. The EU string pullers get their job as a reward from their mates, they are not elected. And yet the EU makes laws that stretch into all corners of society. I would rather live in a country with its own government, in which we know what politicians are doing and we can kick out them out if we don’t like them. The EU’s concept of democracy is laughable. Three times voters in a country gave the ‘wrong’ answer and the response of the EU was to ignore the outcome and hold the vote again:

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2015/10/19/asking-the-public-twice-why-do-voters-change-their-minds-in-second-referendums-on-eu-treaties/

Had they controlled the Brexit referendum, it would have been held again and again until we said no. 

There is without doubt a lot good about the EU. There is no reason not to continue to share security and police information. Workers will be able to come here quite easily, albeit not as freely. Tourism will continue, with a little bit more queuing at the border. Many of  the safety standards, for example on plugs, are excellent and we’ll probably just copy them unless there are good reasons not to. 

As someone else said, this isn’t a case of EU evil, UK good, or vice versa. It is my view that on balance we are better off out, and unlike May, Boris stood up to the EU to secure a sensible trade agreement. Ursula von der Leyen even pushed Barnier aside as his intransigence risked a no deal. The UK fishermen/women won’t be happy though. 

"Boris stood up to the EU"
I'm sorry I just wet myself. If that's your idea of an accurate statement, and BoJo meets your definition of a competent leader... Well there's a difference of opinion and there's diagnosable cognitive dissonance.

MaxiRobriguez

I'm no Boris fan but his brinksmanship does seem to have won us tariff-free access to EU market without regulatory alignment and also negotiation victories on state aid and the level playing field. Three things that even a few weeks ago were deemed impossible.

BananaRepublic

Another_Saver said:

I'm sorry I just wet myself.

I can’t say I’m surprised. 

Thrugelmir

Bobziz said:

Thrugelmir said:

Bobziz said:

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

I'm guessing that you felt well informed prior to your decision. If the is the case, which benefits are you hoping to see ?

From views expressed, in terms of tangible benefits, so far we have: better wages for trades people, cheaper houses, more cheap lower welfare standard foods. There must be more than this surely ? in terms of intangible potential benefits we have more flexibility to make trade deals, and 'opportunities', although I'm not clear how either of these things will provide benefits for the majority.

Given that we've never done this before, none of us are likely to be able to guarantee any particular benefit or disbenefit, but surely those that so passionately supported this change must have a clear idea of what benefits they hoped this would bring for them or our country ? wealthier, happier, healthier, all of the above ?

If you want a political discussion then this isn't the forum. Try Facebook.  

Not interested in a political discussion, which is why I'm asking about benefits. I'd like to hear about the potential financial benefits, but in the absence of that, I've asked about other benefits too because members have suggested that for them it wasn't about money. 

You seem like someone who does their due diligence, and you mentioned opportunities. What are the opportunities that ploughing our own furrow will now afford us ? 

This is an investment and savings forum.  In this regard Brexit changes nothing.  The main agenda has to be go green along with adopting ESG principles across the board.  No one has said yet how this is going to be funded. Capital infrastructure costs along are going to run into many billlions. The push started a while back however momentum has grown in the past year.  Opportunity as always comes with risk. UK investors can opt in or simply allow overseas investors to take the majority share. 

Mickey666

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

No, no, no.  You misunderstand me.  Let's be honest, the masses ARE uninformed!  And I'm as uninformed as any of them.  We all have our opinions, prejudices and dogma but what are they based on?  Really, honestly?  Hardly anyone who votes is a professional politicial or economist etc, so it's hardly surprising that the electorate as a whole is uninformed.  I'd bet that hardly anyone who voted for Brexit understood the issues that would arise out of the land border in Ireland, for example.  Why would they?  THAT'S why we have a parliamentary democracy whereby we vote for professional politicians to make the big, small and complex decisions about how to run the country on our behalf.  And even those professional politicians, despite spending all their waking hours engaged on the job, in parliamentary debates, in select committees, travelling the country etc, are not fully informed themselves, which is why they rely on advisors, experts, think tanks, the civil service etc.  It's easy to sneer at politicians as 'being useless' but the fact is that running a country and an economy is incredibly complex.  So complex in fact that even the professionals with all their expert advisors can't always get it right - so what chance has the 'man on the Clapham omnibus' got of being truly, accurately and fully informed?

THAT is why referendums are a bad thing.  Because, unless they are for something trivial and inconsequential, they put binding decision-making power into the hands of people who do not truly understand all the issues and consequences.

That's not to denigrate the 'uninformed masses', merely being honest about the reality.

Mickey666

MK62 said:

Mickey666 said:

Thrugelmir said:

csgohan4 said:

Thrugelmir said:

csgohan4 said:

LHW99 said:

UK surely makes more exports to the EU than the rest of the world?

Not according to gov.uk

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-exports-to-non-eu-countries-continue-to-outstrip-eu

Surprising given the vast area covered by The EU, however making deals with individual countries, rather than en bloc like the EU, will be very time consuming/expensive and will unlikely have favourable terms compared to the EU as they know they have the UK over a barrel. 

Only 11% of UK trade is with countries with which there's an existing EU trade agreement. The creation of the RCEP has created a headache for the EU. Now the bigggest trade area in the world. 

 While the brexiteers are sniggering in their rich holiday houses abroad, not caring how brexit affects the average Joe. 

You are carrrying one big chip on your shoulder. Time to move on. Remainers living abroad are the ones who object. As it is they they now need to meet conditions of residency. The tales of woe show how much self interest determines peoples views. Much in the same way Covid has. Time to kick American Exceptionalism a byproduct of their form of capitalism into touch. 

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

You do realise that it's the same "uninformed masses" who elect our MPs and governments don't you?........should they not be allowed to do that either?

Of course they should, that's the whole point of a parliamentary democracy.  We vote for a representative to make decisions on our behalf, on the basis that those representatives will be better informed than us by virtue of their 24/7/365 time spent on the job plus their daily access to expert advisers, parliamentary debates, select committees, the civil service etc.

Mickey666

BananaRepublic said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

What an arrogant and patronising remark. 

So can you honestly say that you fully understood all the issues surrounding Brexit and that you've read and fully understand the 'deal' document?   If not then you're as uninformed about the detailed issues as I am.

Sailtheworld

Thrugelmir said:

Bobziz said:

Thrugelmir said:

Bobziz said:

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

I'm guessing that you felt well informed prior to your decision. If the is the case, which benefits are you hoping to see ?

From views expressed, in terms of tangible benefits, so far we have: better wages for trades people, cheaper houses, more cheap lower welfare standard foods. There must be more than this surely ? in terms of intangible potential benefits we have more flexibility to make trade deals, and 'opportunities', although I'm not clear how either of these things will provide benefits for the majority.

Given that we've never done this before, none of us are likely to be able to guarantee any particular benefit or disbenefit, but surely those that so passionately supported this change must have a clear idea of what benefits they hoped this would bring for them or our country ? wealthier, happier, healthier, all of the above ?

If you want a political discussion then this isn't the forum. Try Facebook.  

Not interested in a political discussion, which is why I'm asking about benefits. I'd like to hear about the potential financial benefits, but in the absence of that, I've asked about other benefits too because members have suggested that for them it wasn't about money. 

You seem like someone who does their due diligence, and you mentioned opportunities. What are the opportunities that ploughing our own furrow will now afford us ? 

This is an investment and savings forum.  In this regard Brexit changes nothing.  The main agenda has to be go green along with adopting ESG principles across the board.  No one has said yet how this is going to be funded. Capital infrastructure costs along are going to run into many billlions. The push started a while back however momentum has grown in the past year.  Opportunity as always comes with risk. UK investors can opt in or simply allow overseas investors to take the majority share. 

At the very least the cost and complexity of doing business with the EU has increased (and Northern Ireland is now effectively part of the EU if you move product there). Boris said there were no non-tariff barriers to trade with the EU - this is patently wrong; I'd like to call it a slip of the tongue but it's hardly the sort of thing one utters by mistake.

Investments aren't independent of business. Brexit affects businesses and the effects (positive & negative) are going to be felt for years. It's not credible to suggest Brexit changes nothing in regard to investment.

ESG / China ascendancy / etc. etc. are just taking the discussion off at a tangent - they're as well as brexit - not instead of.

Mickey666

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

No, no, no.  You misunderstand me.  Let's be honest, the masses ARE uninformed!  And I'm as uninformed as any of them.  We all have our opinions, prejudices and dogma but what are they based on?  Really, honestly?  Hardly anyone who votes is a professional politicial or economist etc, so it's hardly surprising that the electorate as a whole is uninformed.  I'd bet that hardly anyone who voted for Brexit understood the issues that would arise out of the land border in Ireland, for example.  Why would they?  THAT'S why we have a parliamentary democracy whereby we vote for professional politicians to make the big, small and complex decisions about how to run the country on our behalf.  And even those professional politicians, despite spending all their waking hours engaged on the job, in parliamentary debates, in select committees, travelling the country etc, are not fully informed themselves, which is why they rely on advisors, experts, think tanks, the civil service etc.  It's easy to sneer at politicians as 'being useless' but the fact is that running a country and an economy is incredibly complex.  So complex in fact that even the professionals with all their expert advisors can't always get it right - so what chance has the 'man on the Clapham omnibus' got of being truly, accurately and fully informed?

THAT is why referendums are a bad thing.  Because, unless they are for something trivial and inconsequential, they put binding decision-making power into the hands of people who do not truly understand all the issues and consequences.

That's not to denigrate the 'uninformed masses', merely being honest about the reality.

You said that the Brexit referendum "is the worst example of democracy in action" and "It's all madness".

Be honest. It's not about the nature of democracy or referendums. You're only saying that because you don't like the outcome.

I don't think I've misunderstood you at all.  🙂

Well I'm afraid you have. 

You've clearly made up your mind about me (in an uninformed sort of way ) so I doubt you'll believe me but I thought exactly what I wrote about the referendum BEFORE the result was even known. 

The outcome is irrelevant to my point that putting such an important question to a population of mostly uninformed people IS madness.  And, to clarify once again, I'm including myself as one of those uninformed.

It's the PROCESS that's wrong, regardless of the outcome.

NottinghamKnight

Mickey666 said:

MK62 said:

Mickey666 said:

Thrugelmir said:

csgohan4 said:

Thrugelmir said:

csgohan4 said:

LHW99 said:

UK surely makes more exports to the EU than the rest of the world?

Not according to gov.uk

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-exports-to-non-eu-countries-continue-to-outstrip-eu

Surprising given the vast area covered by The EU, however making deals with individual countries, rather than en bloc like the EU, will be very time consuming/expensive and will unlikely have favourable terms compared to the EU as they know they have the UK over a barrel. 

Only 11% of UK trade is with countries with which there's an existing EU trade agreement. The creation of the RCEP has created a headache for the EU. Now the bigggest trade area in the world. 

 While the brexiteers are sniggering in their rich holiday houses abroad, not caring how brexit affects the average Joe. 

You are carrrying one big chip on your shoulder. Time to move on. Remainers living abroad are the ones who object. As it is they they now need to meet conditions of residency. The tales of woe show how much self interest determines peoples views. Much in the same way Covid has. Time to kick American Exceptionalism a byproduct of their form of capitalism into touch. 

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

You do realise that it's the same "uninformed masses" who elect our MPs and governments don't you?........should they not be allowed to do that either?

Of course they should, that's the whole point of a parliamentary democracy.  We vote for a representative to make decisions on our behalf, on the basis that those representatives will be better informed than us by virtue of their 24/7/365 time spent on the job plus their daily access to expert advisers, parliamentary debates, select committees, the civil service etc.

We certainly don't or at least that is not what occurs. The majority of the people vote for a party, not an individual with a very few exceptions; indeed those votes are based on a feeling that the broad policies of that party are best for an individual and/ or the country, how many people read any of a party's manifesto. MPs are now supposed to be representative rather than any sort of cream of the population, and unfortunately will follow the party line as they are whipped into voting on the vast majority of issues. when MPs decide to make decisions against their party, and potentially against the majority of their constituents then things get very problematic.