FTSE rising whilst prospect of FTA seems to be fading

Mickey666

Thrugelmir said:

csgohan4 said:

Thrugelmir said:

csgohan4 said:

LHW99 said:

UK surely makes more exports to the EU than the rest of the world?

Not according to gov.uk

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-exports-to-non-eu-countries-continue-to-outstrip-eu

Surprising given the vast area covered by The EU, however making deals with individual countries, rather than en bloc like the EU, will be very time consuming/expensive and will unlikely have favourable terms compared to the EU as they know they have the UK over a barrel. 

Only 11% of UK trade is with countries with which there's an existing EU trade agreement. The creation of the RCEP has created a headache for the EU. Now the bigggest trade area in the world. 

 While the brexiteers are sniggering in their rich holiday houses abroad, not caring how brexit affects the average Joe. 

You are carrrying one big chip on your shoulder. Time to move on. Remainers living abroad are the ones who object. As it is they they now need to meet conditions of residency. The tales of woe show how much self interest determines peoples views. Much in the same way Covid has. Time to kick American Exceptionalism a byproduct of their form of capitalism into touch. 

What about Brexiteers living in the EU?  Yes, I know two Brits who moved away from 'grotty south London' about 20 years ago to live and work in Spain . . . and they voted for Brexit.  Their reason was because the EU was an undemocratic institution.  Go figure.  (don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger!).
Next up we'll have wee Krankie pushing her agenda for another referendum on Scottish independence even harder because, of course, the Scottish people gave the 'wrong answer' at the last referendum and, according to the SNP, need to have another chance to vote for the 'right answer'!  They don't like Westminster having influence over how they run Scotland but apparently don't mind the Brussels having influence over them if they somehow manage to rejoin the EU.  All this sovereignty and nationalism stuff just feeds tribal prejudice and causes more trouble than its worth and distracts politicians and governments from dealing with the real problems facing the planet and, therefore, our civilisation.  Still, at least we'll have 'taken back control' as we watch the world crumble into chaos, so that's alright then.  

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

csgohan4

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

So you would advocate a vote with little to no research, how is that an informed choice? Sadly the media hold the power, specifically tabloids. 

Not everyone is as careful with their vote as they are with their Stocks and Shares.  Which is sad. But the people have now made their bed and they must lie in it, whether one wanted to or not. What's done is done, but whatever happens there has been collateral damage, no doubt the business will be in a far worse position now than they were pre brexit, that is fact

Bobziz

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

I'm guessing that you felt well informed prior to your decision. If the is the case, which benefits are you hoping to see ?

From views expressed, in terms of tangible benefits, so far we have: better wages for trades people, cheaper houses, more cheap lower welfare standard foods. There must be more than this surely ? in terms of intangible potential benefits we have more flexibility to make trade deals, and 'opportunities', although I'm not clear how either of these things will provide benefits for the majority.

Given that we've never done this before, none of us are likely to be able to guarantee any particular benefit or disbenefit, but surely those that so passionately supported this change must have a clear idea of what benefits they hoped this would bring for them or our country ? wealthier, happier, healthier, all of the above ?

csgohan4

IanManc said:

csgohan4 said:

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

So you would advocate a vote with little to no research,
No I wouldn't advocate that. You've just made it up.
how is that an informed choice?
Only you have suggested it. You tell me!
Sadly the media hold the power, specifically tabloids. 
Not really. Their readership has been falling for years.
Not everyone is as careful with their vote as they are with their Stocks and Shares.  Which is sad. But the people have now made their bed and they must lie in it, whether one wanted to or not.
So why not stop carping about it?
What's done is done, but whatever happens there has been collateral damage, no doubt the business will be in a far worse position now than they were pre brexit, that is fact
No it isn't a fact. It's yet another thing that you've made up.

regarding business impact, quite clear really:
https://www.ft.com/content/63e62ff5-8f06-42ef-8cf1-ecd977862beb
https://www.ft.com/content/fbc6f191-6d69-4dcb-b374-0fa6e48a9a1e

People voted leave mainly for immigration and 'sovereignty fetish'. 
Nothing mentioned about the economy or business which is sad and narrow minded. 
http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153
https://www.kbc.com/en/economics/publications/voting-leave:-what-were-the-underlying-factors-behind-the-brexit-vote.html#3

I will respectfully agree to disagree with you, we shall see how the UK goes over the next few decades. 

Thrugelmir

Bobziz said:

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

I'm guessing that you felt well informed prior to your decision. If the is the case, which benefits are you hoping to see ?

From views expressed, in terms of tangible benefits, so far we have: better wages for trades people, cheaper houses, more cheap lower welfare standard foods. There must be more than this surely ? in terms of intangible potential benefits we have more flexibility to make trade deals, and 'opportunities', although I'm not clear how either of these things will provide benefits for the majority.

Given that we've never done this before, none of us are likely to be able to guarantee any particular benefit or disbenefit, but surely those that so passionately supported this change must have a clear idea of what benefits they hoped this would bring for them or our country ? wealthier, happier, healthier, all of the above ?

If you want a political discussion then this isn't the forum. Try Facebook.  

MK62

Mickey666 said:

Thrugelmir said:

csgohan4 said:

Thrugelmir said:

csgohan4 said:

LHW99 said:

UK surely makes more exports to the EU than the rest of the world?

Not according to gov.uk

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-exports-to-non-eu-countries-continue-to-outstrip-eu

Surprising given the vast area covered by The EU, however making deals with individual countries, rather than en bloc like the EU, will be very time consuming/expensive and will unlikely have favourable terms compared to the EU as they know they have the UK over a barrel. 

Only 11% of UK trade is with countries with which there's an existing EU trade agreement. The creation of the RCEP has created a headache for the EU. Now the bigggest trade area in the world. 

 While the brexiteers are sniggering in their rich holiday houses abroad, not caring how brexit affects the average Joe. 

You are carrrying one big chip on your shoulder. Time to move on. Remainers living abroad are the ones who object. As it is they they now need to meet conditions of residency. The tales of woe show how much self interest determines peoples views. Much in the same way Covid has. Time to kick American Exceptionalism a byproduct of their form of capitalism into touch. 

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

You do realise that it's the same "uninformed masses" who elect our MPs and governments don't you?........should they not be allowed to do that either?

As for the benefits of Brexit under this deal.....it's not even started yet and already we're doomed.....like we were doomed the minute the referendum vote was in.....except we weren't
Most people understood that it was highly improbable that everything would be better outside the EU.....it came down to "on balance", and that's where everyone's personal opinions and priorities come in. If someone holds different views it doesn't mean they are stupid or uninformed and therefore undeserving of a vote....what an elitist attitude that is tbh........something I'd expect more from a politburo....

Bobziz

Thrugelmir said:

Bobziz said:

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

I'm guessing that you felt well informed prior to your decision. If the is the case, which benefits are you hoping to see ?

From views expressed, in terms of tangible benefits, so far we have: better wages for trades people, cheaper houses, more cheap lower welfare standard foods. There must be more than this surely ? in terms of intangible potential benefits we have more flexibility to make trade deals, and 'opportunities', although I'm not clear how either of these things will provide benefits for the majority.

Given that we've never done this before, none of us are likely to be able to guarantee any particular benefit or disbenefit, but surely those that so passionately supported this change must have a clear idea of what benefits they hoped this would bring for them or our country ? wealthier, happier, healthier, all of the above ?

If you want a political discussion then this isn't the forum. Try Facebook.  

Not interested in a political discussion, which is why I'm asking about benefits. I'd like to hear about the potential financial benefits, but in the absence of that, I've asked about other benefits too because members have suggested that for them it wasn't about money. 

You seem like someone who does their due diligence, and you mentioned opportunities. What are the opportunities that ploughing our own furrow will now afford us ? 

BananaRepublic

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

What an arrogant and patronising remark. 

BananaRepublic

Bobziz said:

Thrugelmir said:

Bobziz said:

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

I'm guessing that you felt well informed prior to your decision. If the is the case, which benefits are you hoping to see ?

From views expressed, in terms of tangible benefits, so far we have: better wages for trades people, cheaper houses, more cheap lower welfare standard foods. There must be more than this surely ? in terms of intangible potential benefits we have more flexibility to make trade deals, and 'opportunities', although I'm not clear how either of these things will provide benefits for the majority.

Given that we've never done this before, none of us are likely to be able to guarantee any particular benefit or disbenefit, but surely those that so passionately supported this change must have a clear idea of what benefits they hoped this would bring for them or our country ? wealthier, happier, healthier, all of the above ?

If you want a political discussion then this isn't the forum. Try Facebook.  

Not interested in a political discussion, which is why I'm asking about benefits. I'd like to hear about the potential financial benefits, but in the absence of that, I've asked about other benefits too because members have suggested that for them it wasn't about money. 

You seem like someone who does their due diligence, and you mentioned opportunities. What are the opportunities that ploughing our own furrow will now afford us ? 

I’ve already mentioned food imports from the US. Someone traduced that to mean imports of meat from unhealthy badly kept animals. In fact the US is a huge producer of fruit and vegetables as well as meat and it is perfectly good quality. We will benefit greatly and people will be able to choose what to buy. The US produces many other products too. And those who whine on about standards need to look at battery hens and other animals in this country. Much of this outcry is orchestrated by the farming lobby. 

Several anti Brexit posters have said food prices will go up. The head of Tesco recently said (see BBC news) that any food price rises will be negligible. But what does he know compared to experts here? 

EU agricultural policy has in part been shaped to protect French interests. The CAP consume about 40% of the EU budget and favours big business farming. Small and medium size farmers are going out of business. Big farms are dreadful for wildlife. Once common birds and wild plants are disappearing. One potential outcome is a better farming policy that better manages the countryside rather than create a sterile monoculture. 

At present the EU is driven by vested interests, mainly big business. It is in practice not democratic. For example our EU commissioner for a time was Peter Mandleson. He got the job as a reward for sucking up to Blair, and this is all too common. The EU string pullers get their job as a reward from their mates, they are not elected. And yet the EU makes laws that stretch into all corners of society. I would rather live in a country with its own government, in which we know what politicians are doing and we can kick out them out if we don’t like them. The EU’s concept of democracy is laughable. Three times voters in a country gave the ‘wrong’ answer and the response of the EU was to ignore the outcome and hold the vote again:

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2015/10/19/asking-the-public-twice-why-do-voters-change-their-minds-in-second-referendums-on-eu-treaties/

Had they controlled the Brexit referendum, it would have been held again and again until we said no. 

There is without doubt a lot good about the EU. There is no reason not to continue to share security and police information. Workers will be able to come here quite easily, albeit not as freely. Tourism will continue, with a little bit more queuing at the border. Many of  the safety standards, for example on plugs, are excellent and we’ll probably just copy them unless there are good reasons not to. 

As someone else said, this isn’t a case of EU evil, UK good, or vice versa. It is my view that on balance we are better off out, and unlike May, Boris stood up to the EU to secure a sensible trade agreement. Ursula von der Leyen even pushed Barnier aside as his intransigence risked a no deal. The UK fishermen/women won’t be happy though. 

Bobziz

BananaRepublic said:

Bobziz said:

Thrugelmir said:

Bobziz said:

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

IanManc said:

Mickey666 said:

If anything, I'd say the Brexit referendum was a masterclass in proving why asking the uninformed masses to make important decisions is the worst example of democracy in action.  It's all madness.

I see.

Democracy's ok, provided people aren't allowed to make choices you disapprove of. And if they do choose something of which you disapprove then they're "uninformed masses".

Interesting.

I'm guessing that you felt well informed prior to your decision. If the is the case, which benefits are you hoping to see ?

From views expressed, in terms of tangible benefits, so far we have: better wages for trades people, cheaper houses, more cheap lower welfare standard foods. There must be more than this surely ? in terms of intangible potential benefits we have more flexibility to make trade deals, and 'opportunities', although I'm not clear how either of these things will provide benefits for the majority.

Given that we've never done this before, none of us are likely to be able to guarantee any particular benefit or disbenefit, but surely those that so passionately supported this change must have a clear idea of what benefits they hoped this would bring for them or our country ? wealthier, happier, healthier, all of the above ?

If you want a political discussion then this isn't the forum. Try Facebook.  

Not interested in a political discussion, which is why I'm asking about benefits. I'd like to hear about the potential financial benefits, but in the absence of that, I've asked about other benefits too because members have suggested that for them it wasn't about money. 

You seem like someone who does their due diligence, and you mentioned opportunities. What are the opportunities that ploughing our own furrow will now afford us ? 

I’ve already mentioned food imports from the US. Someone traduced that to mean imports of meat from unhealthy badly kept animals. In fact the US is a huge producer of fruit and vegetables as well as meat and it is perfectly good quality. We will benefit greatly and people will be able to choose what to buy. The US produces many other products too. And those who whine on about standards need to look at battery hens and other animals in this country. Much of this outcry is orchestrated by the farming lobby. 

Several anti Brexit posters have said food prices will go up. The head of Tesco recently said (see BBC news) that any food price rises will be negligible. But what does he know compared to experts here? 

EU agricultural policy has in part been shaped to protect French interests. The CAP consume about 40% of the EU budget and favours big business farming. Small and medium size farmers are going out of business. Big farms are dreadful for wildlife. Once common birds and wild plants are disappearing. One potential outcome is a better farming policy that better manages the countryside rather than create a sterile monoculture. 

At present the EU is driven by vested interests, mainly big business. It is in practice not democratic. For example our EU commissioner for a time was Peter Mandleson. He got the job as a reward for sucking up to Blair, and this is all too common. The EU string pullers get their job as a reward from their mates, they are not elected. And yet the EU makes laws that stretch into all corners of society. I would rather live in a country with its own government, in which we know what politicians are doing and we can kick out them out if we don’t like them. The EU’s concept of democracy is laughable. Three times voters in a country gave the ‘wrong’ answer and the response of the EU was to ignore the outcome and hold the vote again:

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2015/10/19/asking-the-public-twice-why-do-voters-change-their-minds-in-second-referendums-on-eu-treaties/

Had they controlled the Brexit referendum, it would have been held again and again until we said no. 

There is without doubt a lot good about the EU. There is no reason not to continue to share security and police information. Workers will be able to come here quite easily, albeit not as freely. Tourism will continue, with a little bit more queuing at the border. Many of  the safety standards, for example on plugs, are excellent and we’ll probably just copy them unless there are good reasons not to. 

As someone else said, this isn’t a case of EU evil, UK good, or vice versa. It is my view that on balance we are better off out, and unlike May, Boris stood up to the EU to secure a sensible trade agreement. Ursula von der Leyen even pushed Barnier aside as his intransigence risked a no deal. The UK fishermen/women won’t be happy though. 

Thanks for your reply. I remain to be convinced about most of your points, but it's useful to understand what you're hoping for and why. 

Your point about the CAP is a good one. Let's hope that the OEP has proper teeth and that the agricultural sector is properly incentivised to produce quality food in an environmentaly sustainable way. Payment for ecosystem services seems to be a good principle.