BITCOIN

zagfles

RichTips said:

zagfles said:

Scottex99 said:

$93.7k, can we hit the magical $100k by the weekend? (It’s not magical at all and just an arbitrary round number).

I got a Facebook 5 year memory yesterday from 19/11/2019 for some crypto meme I posted - BTC price at the time - $8.3k 

Do you think bitcoin will ever become usable as a currency in the real world? I thought that was what it's supposed to be, the name bitcoin says it all, but this sort of volatility makes it utterly useless.

One off immediate purchases may work, but who would draw up any sort of contract in BTC when you haven't got a clue of it's future value? Imagine pricing utilities, rent, phone contracts etc in BTC. What employer would pay in bitcoin, 5 years ago a job with an annual salary of 10 BTC ($83k) would now be close to a million$  Who would take out a loan/mortgage in BTC, image buying an average house with a 50 BTC mortgage, you'd now owe several million £   

At the moment it seems it's nothing more than a tool for high risk speculators rather than being anywhere close to a useable currency. 

While Bitcoin is especially, violently volatile, it's worth noting that the value of all currencies fluctuate relative to each other. Plenty of people have been stung making contracts in EUR, USD, etc. when the value of GBP has then diverged significantly from the point at which the contract was made. The Yen, the fourth most widely held currency, has fallen almost 30% relative to the pound over the last 5 years.

Still, I agree with you that Bitcoin has failed to live up to the role of "electronic cash system" laid out in its white paper. To call it entirely useless, which you didn't, would, I think, be a mistake. The current concensus is that Bitcoin is better suited as a potential global reserve currency and store of value especially useful for those whose own currencies are experiencing rapid devaluation. This is no least due to no centralized party having the ability to inflate its supply. Nobody got any helecopter Bitcoin during the Covid pandemic. For a more details on Bitcoins merits and demerits, I recommend reading the thread in greater detail. The point you've raised, as well as many others, have been discussed at length.

If they get "stung" making contracts in a currency that generally depreciates in value around 2-3% a year, imagine how much they'd get stung making contracts in a currency that doubles, triples, or halves in value in a year!

Would you be happy to sign a rent agreement, phone contract, employ a worker, or take out a mortgage in BTC? 

I did say it was "utterly useless" as a currency, and have seen nothing in this thread or elsewhere to change my mind. It's not even a "store of value", as that also implies stability. A high risk speculative investment, certainly. But its name needs changing then, it's not a "coin" in the sense of a useful currency token that could replace fiat.

Not yet anyway, maybe one day when the speculators and youtube rampers move onto something else!

RichTips

zagfles said:

RichTips said:

zagfles said:

Scottex99 said:

$93.7k, can we hit the magical $100k by the weekend? (It’s not magical at all and just an arbitrary round number).

I got a Facebook 5 year memory yesterday from 19/11/2019 for some crypto meme I posted - BTC price at the time - $8.3k 

Do you think bitcoin will ever become usable as a currency in the real world? I thought that was what it's supposed to be, the name bitcoin says it all, but this sort of volatility makes it utterly useless.

One off immediate purchases may work, but who would draw up any sort of contract in BTC when you haven't got a clue of it's future value? Imagine pricing utilities, rent, phone contracts etc in BTC. What employer would pay in bitcoin, 5 years ago a job with an annual salary of 10 BTC ($83k) would now be close to a million$  Who would take out a loan/mortgage in BTC, image buying an average house with a 50 BTC mortgage, you'd now owe several million £   

At the moment it seems it's nothing more than a tool for high risk speculators rather than being anywhere close to a useable currency. 

While Bitcoin is especially, violently volatile, it's worth noting that the value of all currencies fluctuate relative to each other. Plenty of people have been stung making contracts in EUR, USD, etc. when the value of GBP has then diverged significantly from the point at which the contract was made. The Yen, the fourth most widely held currency, has fallen almost 30% relative to the pound over the last 5 years.

Still, I agree with you that Bitcoin has failed to live up to the role of "electronic cash system" laid out in its white paper. To call it entirely useless, which you didn't, would, I think, be a mistake. The current concensus is that Bitcoin is better suited as a potential global reserve currency and store of value especially useful for those whose own currencies are experiencing rapid devaluation. This is no least due to no centralized party having the ability to inflate its supply. Nobody got any helecopter Bitcoin during the Covid pandemic. For a more details on Bitcoins merits and demerits, I recommend reading the thread in greater detail. The point you've raised, as well as many others, have been discussed at length.

If they get "stung" making contracts in a currency that generally depreciates in value around 2-3% a year, imagine how much they'd get stung making contracts in a currency that doubles, triples, or halves in value in a year!

Would you be happy to sign a rent agreement, phone contract, employ a worker, or take out a mortgage in BTC? 

I did say it was "utterly useless" as a currency, and have seen nothing in this thread or elsewhere to change my mind. It's not even a "store of value", as that also implies stability. A high risk speculative investment, certainly. But its name needs changing then, it's not a "coin" in the sense of a useful currency token that could replace fiat.

Not yet anyway, maybe one day when the speculators and youtube rampers move onto something else!

No, I wouldn't be happy to sign a rent agreement (I own partially thanks to having bought Bitcoin), phone contract (I don't buy phones on contract), or take out a mortgage in BTC (I own partially thanks to having bought Bitcoin). I have paid people in crypto though. I just made sure I owned the agreed payment amount prior to signing the contract (go figure). I refer you to my second paragraph and the oodles of other information available in the thread on the topic of Bitcoin's developing product-market fit since obtaining an exchange value if you're actually interested in what it currently is considered most useful for.

Regarding its name, Apple isn't a fruit and vegetable vendor and you can eat Batchelors soup after getting married. Oh, and what's a YouTube ramper?

zagfles

RichTips said:

zagfles said:

RichTips said:

zagfles said:

Scottex99 said:

$93.7k, can we hit the magical $100k by the weekend? (It’s not magical at all and just an arbitrary round number).

I got a Facebook 5 year memory yesterday from 19/11/2019 for some crypto meme I posted - BTC price at the time - $8.3k 

Do you think bitcoin will ever become usable as a currency in the real world? I thought that was what it's supposed to be, the name bitcoin says it all, but this sort of volatility makes it utterly useless.

One off immediate purchases may work, but who would draw up any sort of contract in BTC when you haven't got a clue of it's future value? Imagine pricing utilities, rent, phone contracts etc in BTC. What employer would pay in bitcoin, 5 years ago a job with an annual salary of 10 BTC ($83k) would now be close to a million$  Who would take out a loan/mortgage in BTC, image buying an average house with a 50 BTC mortgage, you'd now owe several million £   

At the moment it seems it's nothing more than a tool for high risk speculators rather than being anywhere close to a useable currency. 

While Bitcoin is especially, violently volatile, it's worth noting that the value of all currencies fluctuate relative to each other. Plenty of people have been stung making contracts in EUR, USD, etc. when the value of GBP has then diverged significantly from the point at which the contract was made. The Yen, the fourth most widely held currency, has fallen almost 30% relative to the pound over the last 5 years.

Still, I agree with you that Bitcoin has failed to live up to the role of "electronic cash system" laid out in its white paper. To call it entirely useless, which you didn't, would, I think, be a mistake. The current concensus is that Bitcoin is better suited as a potential global reserve currency and store of value especially useful for those whose own currencies are experiencing rapid devaluation. This is no least due to no centralized party having the ability to inflate its supply. Nobody got any helecopter Bitcoin during the Covid pandemic. For a more details on Bitcoins merits and demerits, I recommend reading the thread in greater detail. The point you've raised, as well as many others, have been discussed at length.

If they get "stung" making contracts in a currency that generally depreciates in value around 2-3% a year, imagine how much they'd get stung making contracts in a currency that doubles, triples, or halves in value in a year!

Would you be happy to sign a rent agreement, phone contract, employ a worker, or take out a mortgage in BTC? 

I did say it was "utterly useless" as a currency, and have seen nothing in this thread or elsewhere to change my mind. It's not even a "store of value", as that also implies stability. A high risk speculative investment, certainly. But its name needs changing then, it's not a "coin" in the sense of a useful currency token that could replace fiat.

Not yet anyway, maybe one day when the speculators and youtube rampers move onto something else!

No, I wouldn't be happy to sign a rent agreement (I own partially thanks to having bought Bitcoin), phone contract (I don't buy phones on contract), or take out a mortgage in BTC (I own partially thanks to having bought Bitcoin). I have paid people in crypto though. I just made sure I owned the agreed payment amount prior to signing the contract (go figure). I refer you to my second paragraph and the oodles of other information available in the thread on the topic of Bitcoin's developing product-market fit since obtaining an exchange value if you're actually interested in what it currently is considered most useful for.

Regarding its name, Apple isn't a fruit and vegetable vendor and you can eat Batchelors soup after getting married. Oh, and what's a YouTube ramper?

So, it's as much a currency as an Apple Mac is a fruit. Glad that's established. And that rather than taking out a mortgage etc in BTC you use it to speculate and hope you make enough not to need one. Right, got it. Great financial plan for the kids 

Seriously - as I've said on the thread before, it could end up being a useful "currency" or store of value in the same way as gold is. But first, the speculators who see it as a get rich quick scheme, willy waving "look at how much I've made" and rampers (by which I mean those desperate to convince others to invest to drive the price up often with economically illiterate youtube videos) need to move onto something else. To be a useful currency, it needs to be boring and steady. 

Scottex99

Acromion said:

I haven’t read the 339 pages of the thread, so apologies if this has already been dealt with.

I now - incredibly! - seem to have about £2000 worth of Bitcoin in Coinbase and another £1000 in Revolut. 

I know you are supposed to transfer the Btc into a wallet but that seems a bit of a faff and hitherto I’ve just left it in the accounts.

The recent rise is making me think about it again - any advice, or is it OK to just let it sit where it is?

For that amount you’ll be fine. They are both big firms.

You might never touch a crypto asset ever again, except when you sell.

However you may want to buy a hardware wallet, do some on-chain transactions and see how it all works.

Either or

Scottex99

So, it's as much a currency as an Apple Mac is a fruit. Glad that's established. And that rather than taking out a mortgage etc in BTC you use it to speculate and hope you make enough not to need one. Right, got it. Great financial plan for the kids 

Seriously - as I've said on the thread before, it could end up being a useful "currency" or store of value in the same way as gold is. But first, the speculators who see it as a get rich quick scheme, willy waving "look at how much I've made" and rampers (by which I mean those desperate to convince others to invest to drive the price up often with economically illiterate youtube videos) need to move onto something else. To be a useful currency, it needs to be boring and steady. 

I can see both sides here I think.

You’re right, it was created as p2p eCash and it’s not being used for that, although it obviously holds value and can be used to transfer value too.

i know a guy who bought an Audi R8 years ago for 10 BTC. He loves cars and he took it racing a lot but I’m sure he’d prefer to have $1m today. He’s got a few mill anyway.

Stablecoins to me are the “currency” side of it. BTC and the alts are the speculative investment side. I had another mate final table a poker event in Taiwan a few weeks back. He won $45k and could either have those dollars send by swift to his uk bank 

or 

Sent by USDT, which took of all of 30 seconds instead of 5 days waiting for a bank transfer.

Are we still in get rich quick territory too? I guess so but I’ve been buying since 2017 so for me it’s not that short term.

The YouTubers, course sellers and grifters are in lots of industries, not just crypto, they’ll be on to AI soon enough 

Still not officially $100k but it’s coming 

RichTips

zagfles said:

RichTips said:

zagfles said:

RichTips said:

zagfles said:

Scottex99 said:

$93.7k, can we hit the magical $100k by the weekend? (It’s not magical at all and just an arbitrary round number).

I got a Facebook 5 year memory yesterday from 19/11/2019 for some crypto meme I posted - BTC price at the time - $8.3k 

Do you think bitcoin will ever become usable as a currency in the real world? I thought that was what it's supposed to be, the name bitcoin says it all, but this sort of volatility makes it utterly useless.

One off immediate purchases may work, but who would draw up any sort of contract in BTC when you haven't got a clue of it's future value? Imagine pricing utilities, rent, phone contracts etc in BTC. What employer would pay in bitcoin, 5 years ago a job with an annual salary of 10 BTC ($83k) would now be close to a million$  Who would take out a loan/mortgage in BTC, image buying an average house with a 50 BTC mortgage, you'd now owe several million £   

At the moment it seems it's nothing more than a tool for high risk speculators rather than being anywhere close to a useable currency. 

While Bitcoin is especially, violently volatile, it's worth noting that the value of all currencies fluctuate relative to each other. Plenty of people have been stung making contracts in EUR, USD, etc. when the value of GBP has then diverged significantly from the point at which the contract was made. The Yen, the fourth most widely held currency, has fallen almost 30% relative to the pound over the last 5 years.

Still, I agree with you that Bitcoin has failed to live up to the role of "electronic cash system" laid out in its white paper. To call it entirely useless, which you didn't, would, I think, be a mistake. The current concensus is that Bitcoin is better suited as a potential global reserve currency and store of value especially useful for those whose own currencies are experiencing rapid devaluation. This is no least due to no centralized party having the ability to inflate its supply. Nobody got any helecopter Bitcoin during the Covid pandemic. For a more details on Bitcoins merits and demerits, I recommend reading the thread in greater detail. The point you've raised, as well as many others, have been discussed at length.

If they get "stung" making contracts in a currency that generally depreciates in value around 2-3% a year, imagine how much they'd get stung making contracts in a currency that doubles, triples, or halves in value in a year!

Would you be happy to sign a rent agreement, phone contract, employ a worker, or take out a mortgage in BTC? 

I did say it was "utterly useless" as a currency, and have seen nothing in this thread or elsewhere to change my mind. It's not even a "store of value", as that also implies stability. A high risk speculative investment, certainly. But its name needs changing then, it's not a "coin" in the sense of a useful currency token that could replace fiat.

Not yet anyway, maybe one day when the speculators and youtube rampers move onto something else!

No, I wouldn't be happy to sign a rent agreement (I own partially thanks to having bought Bitcoin), phone contract (I don't buy phones on contract), or take out a mortgage in BTC (I own partially thanks to having bought Bitcoin). I have paid people in crypto though. I just made sure I owned the agreed payment amount prior to signing the contract (go figure). I refer you to my second paragraph and the oodles of other information available in the thread on the topic of Bitcoin's developing product-market fit since obtaining an exchange value if you're actually interested in what it currently is considered most useful for.

Regarding its name, Apple isn't a fruit and vegetable vendor and you can eat Batchelors soup after getting married. Oh, and what's a YouTube ramper?

So, it's as much a currency as an Apple Mac is a fruit. Glad that's established. And that rather than taking out a mortgage etc in BTC you use it to speculate and hope you make enough not to need one. Right, got it. Great financial plan for the kids 

Seriously - as I've said on the thread before, it could end up being a useful "currency" or store of value in the same way as gold is. But first, the speculators who see it as a get rich quick scheme, willy waving "look at how much I've made" and rampers (by which I mean those desperate to convince others to invest to drive the price up often with economically illiterate youtube videos) need to move onto something else. To be a useful currency, it needs to be boring and steady. 

An Apple Mac? No, you're right, that isn't a kind of fruit. Pretty sure it's some kind of green-coloured waterproof coat.
But to be serious, I've voiced my conviction here for a number of years and have held it privately since 2016 that Bitcoin has a use. That use hasn't been, for me at least, digital cash. If the name Bitcoin makes you consider any other use untenable, then so be it.

Scottex99

Yep agreed, wasn’t Berkshire H a textiles firm when it started?

I don’t get the argument that the use of an asset/company etc can’t change over time 

zagfles

Scottex99 said:

Yep agreed, wasn’t Berkshire H a textiles firm when it started?

I don’t get the argument that the use of an asset/company etc can’t change over time 

Nor do I, who's making that argument? Not me, I already said "...it could end up being a useful "currency" or store of value in the same way as gold is. But first..."

Scottex99

You also said “utterly useless as a currency” but my comment is more aimed at the narrative from the anti bitcoin groups.

it was supposed to be a currency, it’s probably not. It could be a store of value, if you can stomach the volatility. It is a trustless ledger that solved the double spend problem but uses crazy amounts of electricity to do it.

its the fastest growing asset class of all time. 

To me, these things are fluid and as BTC is barely 15 years old, there are plenty of changes still to come 

zagfles

Scottex99 said:

You also said “utterly useless as a currency” but my comment is more aimed at the narrative from the anti bitcoin groups.

it was supposed to be a currency, it’s probably not. It could be a store of value, if you can stomach the volatility. It is a trustless ledger that solved the double spend problem but uses crazy amounts of electricity to do it.

its the fastest growing asset class of all time. 

To me, these things are fluid and as BTC is barely 15 years old, there are plenty of changes still to come 

Yeah, "at the moment" and while it's so volatile! For which I gave reasons!

Who are these "anti bitcoin" groups? Is it some sort of conspiracy? Do they have meetings to discuss how they bring about its demise? Or are they just individuals who for one reason or another think it's not the investment for them? There's thousands of investments I wouldn't personally touch with a bargepole, eg property funds, if I gave reasons why, am I part of an "anti-property group"?  Reminds me of IFAs who whinge about people who don't see the need for them as "anti-IFA". Implication of irrational bias rather than genuine reasons and usually used by people with a vested interest. 

Anyway back to bitcoin, when the discussion starts changing to "how can I use BTC to pay for stuff, is it a good idea to fix my electric tariff in BTC, can I get a credit card in BTC" then I might start being interested. While it's all willy waving, gloating, crying, and speculation about its price, I'll make use of my proverbial bargepole. 

That's me done. You can all get back to getting excited about price now.