Too fat for my uniform

Manxman_in_exile

Concerning mammography, if I recall correctly the argument was about screening uptake.  Breast screening is (or was - not sure if it's changed now) done by female radiographers.  What evidence there was (surveys and from countries where the practice had changed) tended to show that male mammographers would further reduce the take-up, and many would argue that take-up is already too low.

So female only mammographers is (or was) justified on the grounds that it was a proportionate measure in pursuit of a legitimate aim (ie to increase the take-up of breast screening.  It's not the women that don't mind that's important in this case - it's the ones that do mind).

TBagpuss

Takmon said:

So it's fine for women to be sexist for no logical reason?

Not long ago black people were restricted from applying for certain jobs because white customers didn't want a black person serving them for no logical reason. Luckily attitudes like that are mostly a thing of the past but you wanting a woman to do this job just because the customers are women is definitely sexist which uses a similar logic to people who are racist. 

You also seem to be unable to explain why it's fine for a lesbian woman to do the job just to get a look at some breasts but it's not fine for a man to do it?

It's not for no logical reason.

A huge proportion of women will have experiences sexual assault by men (very few of us have experiences sexual assaults by other women) - while there may be a minority of lesbians who might get a thrill from seeing other women's breasts the numbers mean that being in a fitting room in a vulnerable situation with a male fitter both is, and feels, far more risky. (I would have to say that lesbians are, in my experience, far less obsessed with breasts than men are. I can't speak for everyone, but personally, none of my lesbian friends or acquaintances have ever commented on my breasts, touched or attempted to touch them or done anything to make me feel uncomfortable around them, even in shared spaced like changing rooms or saunas. Nor have I ever had a strange woman do any of those things, even though it's a statistical certainty that some of the women I've shared changing rooms, bars, swimming pools, sauna and public spaces with were lesbians.  I can't, sadly, say the same of men. 

Also, women, including lesbians, actually *have* breasts so are generally in a far better position to discuss and advise about bras.
Also, there are issues which women may be comfortable talking to other women about and would not be comfortable talking to an unknown man about.

The situation with regard to medical examinations is different - doctors and other medical professionals have a lot more training, they have more reputation and greater scrutiny than is normal, or indeed than would be permitted, for a retail position. Plus there's the whole thing that if you are uncomfortable with a medical examination you can request a chaperone. I have never been in a bra shop where that's routinely offered. 

While of course I would rather not suffer an assault at all, I would also be more confident that any issues would be properly investigated and addressed if there was inappropriate behavior in a medical setting, I don't have anything like the same confidence in relation to poor behavior by a shop assistant

fred246

I think the WASPI women is a great example. Women want equality except when they prefer inequality. Then they fight tooth and nail for the inequality that they deserve. No amount of arguing will change that.

Manxman_in_exile

TBagpuss said:

Takmon said:

So it's fine for women to be sexist for no logical reason?

Not long ago black people were restricted from applying for certain jobs because white customers didn't want a black person serving them for no logical reason. Luckily attitudes like that are mostly a thing of the past but you wanting a woman to do this job just because the customers are women is definitely sexist which uses a similar logic to people who are racist. 

You also seem to be unable to explain why it's fine for a lesbian woman to do the job just to get a look at some breasts but it's not fine for a man to do it?

It's not for no logical reason.

A huge proportion of women will have experiences sexual assault by men (very few of us have experiences sexual assaults by other women) - while there may be a minority of lesbians who might get a thrill from seeing other women's breasts the numbers mean that being in a fitting room in a vulnerable situation with a male fitter both is, and feels, far more risky.

...
The situation with regard to medical examinations is different - doctors and other medical professionals have a lot more training, they have more reputation and greater scrutiny than is normal, or indeed than would be permitted, for a retail position. Plus there's the whole thing that if you are uncomfortable with a medical examination you can request a chaperone. I have never been in a bra shop where that's routinely offered. 

While of course I would rather not suffer an assault at all, I would also be more confident that any issues would be properly investigated and addressed if there was inappropriate behavior in a medical setting, I don't have anything like the same confidence in relation to poor behavior by a shop assistant

I'll have to say I don't know what the relative numbers are, but what is a "huge proportion" of women subject to sexual assault by men?  Is it 80%? Is it 70%?  Is it 10%?  What is the corresponding number for assaults by women?  Does anyone actually know apart from feeling they know?

It's like the corresponding side of the perennial "stop and search" issue.  I am told that people of afro-caribbean descent are statistically more likely to commit certain types of crime and that this fact justifies the disproportionate number of afro-caribbean people detained by the police under stop and search procedures.  But does it?  Does should it prevent any afro-caribbean people being employed as police officers, or lawyers, or judges?  Does the fact that certain types of crime are more likely to be committed by people of afro-caribbean origin mean that afro-caribbean people are more likely to be criminals?  Is it justifiable to exercise stop and search powers disproportionately against afro-caribbean people? 

And I'd suggest Takmon patronises a more enlightened bra shop that is not discriminating against male bra-fitters and which employs female chaperones if required by the customer.  What's wrong with that?  Oh - the customer would rather be complicit in the discrimination, which allows them to "feel more comfortable" and spend less money, than battle a classic example of discrimination, because why would they agree to a male fitter when there's plenty of female candidiates?  Isn't that sort of attitude the root source of all discrimination?

Would AskAsk and Takmon feel more or less comfortable with a trans-female assistant?

(Anybody who assumes I'm male is correct in that assumption - anybody who assumes I'm white/black/asian/abled/disabled/a criminal/trans/cis/gay/hetero/binary/digital is equally as likely to be wrong as correct).

robatwork

OK I'm going to ask as I don't know. What's involved in a bra fitting?
I've had trousers fitted and there's a need for the tailor to measure right into the groin down the inside leg. However this is only the briefest opportunity for him or her to enjoy an accidental feel of the family silverware. 
I would guess a bra fitting involves measuring around the bust but please (yes I'm saying it) fill me in.

Savvy_Sue

Yes, bra fitting involves measuring around the bust, and under the bust. IIRC this is usually done while you're wearing your original bra, although if it's obviously too small it may be constricting everything.

Then there's the fitting of a new bra: you're supposed to 'fall' into your cups rather than hoist them in, obviously the former is tricky when you have to fall in and then do yourself up at the back. So I've had bra fitters standing behind me while I 'fall' in, and then they do me up. 

A good fitter prides herself on not needing to measure, and selecting bras according to fit rather than size. 

I stumbled on this the other day, if it's of interest. 

Takmon

TBagpuss said:

Takmon said:

So it's fine for women to be sexist for no logical reason?

Not long ago black people were restricted from applying for certain jobs because white customers didn't want a black person serving them for no logical reason. Luckily attitudes like that are mostly a thing of the past but you wanting a woman to do this job just because the customers are women is definitely sexist which uses a similar logic to people who are racist. 

You also seem to be unable to explain why it's fine for a lesbian woman to do the job just to get a look at some breasts but it's not fine for a man to do it?

It's not for no logical reason.

A huge proportion of women will have experiences sexual assault by men (very few of us have experiences sexual assaults by other women) - while there may be a minority of lesbians who might get a thrill from seeing other women's breasts the numbers mean that being in a fitting room in a vulnerable situation with a male fitter both is, and feels, far more risky. (I would have to say that lesbians are, in my experience, far less obsessed with breasts than men are. I can't speak for everyone, but personally, none of my lesbian friends or acquaintances have ever commented on my breasts, touched or attempted to touch them or done anything to make me feel uncomfortable around them, even in shared spaced like changing rooms or saunas. Nor have I ever had a strange woman do any of those things, even though it's a statistical certainty that some of the women I've shared changing rooms, bars, swimming pools, sauna and public spaces with were lesbians.  I can't, sadly, say the same of men. 

Also, women, including lesbians, actually *have* breasts so are generally in a far better position to discuss and advise about bras.
Also, there are issues which women may be comfortable talking to other women about and would not be comfortable talking to an unknown man about.

The situation with regard to medical examinations is different - doctors and other medical professionals have a lot more training, they have more reputation and greater scrutiny than is normal, or indeed than would be permitted, for a retail position. Plus there's the whole thing that if you are uncomfortable with a medical examination you can request a chaperone. I have never been in a bra shop where that's routinely offered. 

While of course I would rather not suffer an assault at all, I would also be more confident that any issues would be properly investigated and addressed if there was inappropriate behavior in a medical setting, I don't have anything like the same confidence in relation to poor behavior by a shop assistant

Figures show that one in five women have experienced sexual assault which is obviously completely unacceptable but that does not mean that it's justifiable for all men to be discriminated against because a proportion of men commit these type of crimes.

If anything you seem to be saying that the majority of men are capable of sexual assault but that's fine because we just won't let them work intimately with women and keep an eye on them when they have too. Which is completely the wrong way to think about it. 

General_Grant

robatwork said:

OK I'm going to ask as I don't know. What's involved in a bra fitting?
I've had trousers fitted and there's a need for the tailor to measure right into the groin down the inside leg. However this is only the briefest opportunity for him or her to enjoy an accidental feel of the family silverware. 
I would guess a bra fitting involves measuring around the bust but please (yes I'm saying it) fill me in.

Don't tailors use a tape measure with a length of metal along the beginning of the tape so that there is no need to manually "feel"?

qaasim

I can't see that being an issue. That would be discriminatory.
I would just have a chat to flag it will be an issue and let them sort it out.

Rosedalton

You can ask for the size that perfectly fits you.