Young drivers telematics Black Box algorithm black hole

Sandtree

Thrugelmir said:

Sandtree said:

fc94 said:

What I stated clearly is that the driver is scored on comparative speed, not the speed limit which the black box does not know. 

 For every road, insurers will know the speed limit but for only a very modest proportion of roads outside of major towns or motorways/dual carriage ways there will be enough data to do a recent comparison of driving speeds, go onto any minor roads and there will be insufficient recent data to make any comparison but the speed limit will remain known.

My SatNav indicates clearly when I'm exceeding the speed limit. The technology exists. 

I know, hence I said "but the speed limit will remain known".

The black box is a simpler device that your sat nav so I fully accept that the speed limit element may be done once the data is received by the telematics company but if its done in the box or in the servers is totally irrelevant to the point which is if the driver is breaking the speed limit will always be known to the insurance company whereas how fast they are driving compared to other drivers may or may not be known depending on how many other drivers there are about with the same brand of black box installed.

fc94

Thank you for all your comments. Direct Line (at least the black boxes they use) do not have the speed limit of each area.  They only look at comparative speed. This has been articulated by no less than 5 separate agents including 2 team leaders. It could be that other telematics service and box providers have this feature but DL does not. Driving well below the speed limit can be seen as dangerous as driving over. It is probably the case that the data is not robust as one needs critical mass but we will never know exactly how the algorithm works because insurance companies do not have to disclose anything. My point is and has been from the beginning (and also cited many times in the press) that there is no transparency so one cannot know why one gets a certain score for any given journey. Direct Line scores on 5 categories 1) Time of Day 2) Length of Journey 3) Road Risk 4) Comparative Speed and 5) Smooth Drive. They said the only two really important categories which the driver can control is Comparative Speed and Smooth Driving. The total score is out of 100. On one of our drives, 4 categories scored 4 or 5/5 but time of day (11:30pm) was a 1/5. The  total score for that drive was 2/100. When questioned, Direct Line said it was because of the time of day which brought the whole score down. That is completely inconsistent with the alleged scoring system. Either that or the weightings change to allocate a disproportionately to the lowest score. 
I am not looking for an angry exchange here. Redacting will not achieve anything.  I am simply raising the awareness of the mystery of the algorithms of these black boxes.

Dr_Crypto

I just can't accept this. Comparitive speeds are meaningless without knowing the types of vehicle involved. If most of the data is from lorries then how can it apply to private cars? Some people drive at 56mph on the motorway tucked between lorries; no idea why maybe they think it saves them an eggcup of petrol or they'll get a nosebleed if they go faster. But that isn't illegal or dangerous. 
Either way I am glad not to have ever had one of these boxes and I doubt I ever will. 

Sandtree

fc94 said:

 This has been articulated by no less than 5 separate agents including 2 team leaders. It could be that other telematics service and box providers have this feature but DL does not.

Speak to all 5,000 agents, or how many DLG have these days, and still not a single one will have ever seen the algorithm nor ever had it properly explained to them.

I can tell you without doubt that Trakm8 does give speed limits... now DL could choose to ignore this but that implicitly means they are encouraging speeding if the only other two cars on the road at the same time as you are doing 40 in a 30. A massive moral, if not legal, risk if this is how their algorithm works but I'd bet my eye teeth that despite what all 5,000 agents may tell you that a comparative speed test is capped at the speed limit.

Jumblebumble

Having looked at Direct Lines website it does use Comparative speed and not limits BUT only says you will be marked down by driving faster that other users which is fine and I do not see how any one could have an issue with this applying to inexperienced drivers as they will soon have to overtake or brake as they catch up with the car in front and this is potentially more dangerous than going with the flow
Nowhere does it say one will be penalised for driving more slowly than other users which the OP alleges and it is nonsense to suggest that driving in a 20 MPH limit is causing score lowering  when the situation in London suburbs is that generally the police do not enforce 20MPH limits and most people are continuing to drive at 30 ish
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https://www.directline.com/car-insurance/telematics/driveplus/faqs

Q4What does ‘comparative speed’ stand for?

It’s our measure of speed. It measures your speed in comparison to other road users. It doesn’t take speed limits into account. If our feedback suggests you are performing poorly on 'comparative speed’ it means you are driving faster than other users of that road

fc94

I followed up with Direct Line on the 2/100 score on that night when  3/5 categories were good and road risk as always was low. The first time I called to question it, the agent said that it was the 'time of day' which drove the score down.   Second time I raised question about this same score, the telematics team leader said time of day was irrelevant rather it was because of driving through a lot of segments (which London is essentially) in a very short distance giving a very low road risk score....different answer every time. 
Ironically, we were getting near to 100/100 on country roads where narrow lanes and blind spots can be far more dangerous. 
What we have learned is that getting a telematics box for central London is a great way of reducing those first years of car insurance for young drivers, but I don't believe the premium will come down materially in the second or third years because there are certain things like road risk which will never go up by virtue of being in central London therefore the overall average score can never result in a significant discount to the policy in subsequent years. 

chrisw

I think they have their use in keeping the first years premium down for young drivers, and I think it also helps keep them in check a bit whilst they are still effectively still learning the driving skills.

For the second year they just form part of the overall insurance price comparison scene. If the black box is significantly cheaper then it could be worth it. In my son's case, the second year was only around £25 more expensive without the black box and he felt that was a price worth paying to avoid the uncertainties you've highlighted. 

Jfk1988

chrisw said:

I think they have their use in keeping the first years premium down for young drivers, and I think it also helps keep them in check a bit whilst they are still effectively still learning the driving skills.

It's the companies that threaten to increase premiums during the policy year that should be avoided, plus those that charge by the mile if you start to go over the initial estimate.

Jumblebumble

chrisw said:

I think they have their use in keeping the first years premium down for young drivers, and I think it also helps keep them in check a bit whilst they are still effectively still learning the driving skills.

For the second year they just form part of the overall insurance price comparison scene. If the black box is significantly cheaper then it could be worth it. In my son's case, the second year was only around £25 more expensive without the black box and he felt that was a price worth paying to avoid the uncertainties you've highlighted. 

Your son sounds like a sensible lad as no one in their right minds would save £25 and have a black box fitted and risk having cancelations on their record

Imnoexpert_2

I  found this thread following a tortuous conversation with a call handler while querying a telematics quote for my son.

I find it very strange to be making a contract for a service where there are penalty clauses that can be enforced against someone with no prior understanding or agreement of what specific behaviour will be penalised. I wonder if this is legally questionable (I'm no expert). Clearly therre is a complex algorithm involved but it would be good to know some information such as what is late night driving? How often can you be out late? How is driving style measured? what is a bad score? how many times can you get a low score before being penalised.

My inclination is to get a dashcam to be able to evidence driving style independently in case of trouble.

I was talking to Admiral who were (to be fair) giving a good price - £1100.

Interestingly the best insight I have had has come from youngsters themselves posting on youtube.